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Message 2589 - Posted 5 May 2006 22:02:50 UTC

    Hey, the claimed credits have been granted. Also I\'ve installed the 1.8 version of the application for linux and windows. As far as the tests have shown, the problem of the invalid wus after a checkpoint could be traced back to the good old line end character difference between the several OSs. I hope it will be fine from now on (give me some feedback on this, thx). If so, than I\'ll soon release the mac and solaris varsions too.

    By the way, you can reach the website of the Networkshop conference form the news section. My colleauge and me have presented SZTAKI Desktop Grid, you can watch the videos of the presentations (if I\'ll have some time during the summer, I\'ll subtitle them in English). A comment: this was my first real presentation in front of a bigger public (not just students), so I was a bit nervous, but it was fine...

    That\'s all for now...have a nice weekend...
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    Message 2593 - Posted 6 May 2006 8:28:29 UTC

      Last modified: 8 May 2006 9:08:39 UTC

      Adam, i\'m afraid that you will need to grant manually credits for march. (Granted credit -> pending + Validate state -> Initial ) ;)
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      Message 2609 - Posted 8 May 2006 1:31:08 UTC - in response to Message 2589.

        Last modified: 8 May 2006 17:44:53 UTC

        Hey, the claimed credits have been granted. Also I\'ve installed the 1.8 version of the application for linux and windows. As far as the tests have shown, the problem of the invalid wus after a checkpoint could be traced back to the good old line end character difference between the several OSs. I hope it will be fine from now on (give me some feedback on this, thx). If so, than I\'ll soon release the mac and solaris varsions too.

        By the way, you can reach the website of the Networkshop conference form the news section. My colleauge and me have presented SZTAKI Desktop Grid, you can watch the videos of the presentations (if I\'ll have some time during the summer, I\'ll subtitle them in English). A comment: this was my first real presentation in front of a bigger public (not just students), so I was a bit nervous, but it was fine...

        That\'s all for now...have a nice weekend...

        I have also the link for the Networkshop 2005 conference [Alkalmazói programozási felület SETI-jelleg? elosztott programokhoz és végrehajtó rendszer a BOINC infrastruktúrára] but because the warning on the site (web publication), not sure that we\'re allowed to put here. (?)

        Don\'t worry, never easy to speak in front of many people :)
        Very good idea to translate what you say because a little difficult to understand :)

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        Message 2669 - Posted 14 May 2006 22:37:04 UTC - in response to Message 2593.

          Adam, i\'m afraid that you will need to grant manually credits for march.


          I\'ve granted credit for all of the results in the database that fullfills the followings:
          - outcome = success
          - claimed_credit > 0
          - granted_credit = 0
          - validate_state = Invalid OR result has been received before 3. May 2006.

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          Message 2670 - Posted 14 May 2006 22:38:39 UTC

            I\'ve released 1.9 version for linux and windows as the results with 1.8 have shown that the notification of the core client at the end of the processing is not fully deterministic. Hope it will be better now...
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            Message 2716 - Posted 19 May 2006 1:31:39 UTC

              a request: when starting a new thread for your developer blog, would it be possible to make a post in the old one saying that there\'s a new thread, for those of us who are subscribed to the threads and don\'t check the forum index regularly :)
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              Message 2761 - Posted 25 May 2006 10:42:00 UTC

                Last modified: 25 May 2006 10:42:58 UTC

                please see: web site suggestions

                also as a windows user, i think the new apps are working as desired, i\'m not getting any more invalid results :)
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                Message 2824 - Posted 30 May 2006 23:41:11 UTC

                  Might want to check this thread, Adam. Seems that there are code fixes to fix a problem with many duplicate hosts being created.
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                  Message 2984 - Posted 10 Jun 2006 22:33:03 UTC

                    Well, if only for a short time, but yesterday we\'ve...or to be more precise YOU have hit the performance of 1,6 TFlop/s...with which SZTAKI Desktop Grid qualifies itself on the TOP500 list of supercomputers.

                    For this I have to say a big thank you to all who participates in this project.

                    Besides these awsome results as you all know SZDG is having some pretty hard time nowadays. I\'ve just realized that the one and only purpose of my blog was to let the participants have some insights behind the curtains of the project. And to be honest the blog hasn\'t really fullfilled it\'s original purpose. This is of course my fault...
                    ...well, you\'ve to know that in the backgrounds we\'re testing the new algorithm with the heavy forces of the A.D.A.M. army :-) I hope I can release the new algorithm as soon as possible and meanwhile I can also successfully pass my exams...
                    ...so keep up the good work guys and help me to make this project as good as possible...
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                    Message 2985 - Posted 12 Jun 2006 2:09:23 UTC

                      This site maintains the list of the 500 fastest supercomputer installations in the world (the TOP500).
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                      Message 2990 - Posted 13 Jun 2006 18:59:16 UTC

                        Last modified: 13 Jun 2006 19:32:06 UTC

                        Well, if only for a short time, but yesterday we\'ve...or to be more precise YOU have hit the performance of 1,6 TFlop/s...with which SZTAKI Desktop Grid qualifies itself on the TOP500 list of supercomputers.

                        Some things are \"interesting\" :
                        - the server holds the load without problem
                        - wus are flowing smoothly
                        - ehm, indeed for a short time, we have hit the 1.6 TFlops ; is it possible that we cross the 2000 GFlops line (even for a short time) ?
                        - how many people are running \"AkosF optimizations\" ? ;)

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                        Message 2991 - Posted 13 Jun 2006 20:20:02 UTC - in response to Message 2990.

                          Some things are \"interesting\" :
                          - the server holds the load without problem
                          ...
                          - how many people are running \"AkosF optimizations\" ? ;)
                          ... and 1-2 minutes / wu is possible.

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                          Message 2992 - Posted 13 Jun 2006 20:32:25 UTC - in response to Message 2991.

                            Some things are \"interesting\" :
                            - the server holds the load without problem
                            ...
                            - how many people are running \"AkosF optimizations\" ? ;)
                            ... and 1-2 minutes / wu is possible.

                            That sounds as if composite WUs would be needed (similar to Rosetta) with a number of models to run and return in a batch, rather than one at a time. Downloading, running and returning them at 1-2 minutes a WU would be too much for most clients and networks I\'m sure, whether the server can cope or not. Mike
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                            Message 2993 - Posted 13 Jun 2006 20:52:30 UTC

                              Last modified: 13 Jun 2006 21:00:11 UTC

                              WU sizes can be changed, Adam had larger WUs for some time - unfortunately they have been so much larger that no one could handle them ;-)

                              With Akos and Adam working together, those big WUs would probably be an option again - would require an optimized default client though.

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                              Message 2994 - Posted 13 Jun 2006 22:40:33 UTC - in response to Message 2991.

                                Some things are \"interesting\" :
                                - the server holds the load without problem
                                ...
                                - how many people are running \"AkosF optimizations\" ? ;)
                                ... and 1-2 minutes / wu is possible.

                                1 - 2 minutes ? but using what machine ?
                                How is possible to get these super short times ?
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                                Message 2995 - Posted 13 Jun 2006 23:58:22 UTC - in response to Message 2994.

                                  Some things are \"interesting\" :
                                  - the server holds the load without problem
                                  ...
                                  - how many people are running \"AkosF optimizations\" ? ;)
                                  ... and 1-2 minutes / wu is possible.

                                  1 - 2 minutes ? but using what machine ?
                                  How is possible to get these super short times ?


                                  Yes


                                  Akosf =

                                  CPU time (sec) 24.89

                                  Claimed credit 0.34

                                  Granted credit 0.75
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                                  Message 2996 - Posted 14 Jun 2006 0:37:29 UTC - in response to Message 2995.

                                    Last modified: 14 Jun 2006 0:41:59 UTC

                                    Some things are \"interesting\" :
                                    - the server holds the load without problem
                                    ...
                                    - how many people are running \"AkosF optimizations\" ? ;)
                                    ... and 1-2 minutes / wu is possible.

                                    1 - 2 minutes ? but using what machine ?
                                    How is possible to get these super short times ?


                                    Yes


                                    Akosf =

                                    CPU time (sec) 24.89

                                    Claimed credit 0.34

                                    Granted credit 0.75

                                    Je le sais déj?.
                                    Ce qui m\'intéresse est de connaître quelle machine serait la référence, sur quelle wu de référence et surtout comment cela est obtenu.

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                                    Message 2997 - Posted 14 Jun 2006 1:43:53 UTC - in response to Message 2996.

                                      Last modified: 14 Jun 2006 1:46:13 UTC

                                      Some things are \"interesting\" :
                                      - the server holds the load without problem
                                      ...
                                      - how many people are running \"AkosF optimizations\" ? ;)
                                      ... and 1-2 minutes / wu is possible.

                                      1 - 2 minutes ? but using what machine ?
                                      How is possible to get these super short times ?


                                      Yes


                                      Akosf =

                                      CPU time (sec) 24.89

                                      Claimed credit 0.34

                                      Granted credit 0.75

                                      Je le sais d???j???.
                                      Ce qui m\'int???resse est de conna???tre quelle machine serait la r???f???rence, sur quelle wu de r???f???rence et surtout comment cela est obtenu.


                                      Je ne r?Špondait que ?  la premi?¨re question lol


                                      Edit: Les stats que j\'ai eu l? , ?Štait fait sur un de ces 1,8ghz je croit...
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                                      Message 2999 - Posted 14 Jun 2006 6:25:20 UTC - in response to Message 2994.

                                        Last modified: 14 Jun 2006 6:30:12 UTC

                                        1 - 2 minutes ? but using what machine ?
                                        How is possible to get these super short times ?

                                        Yes, 1-2 minutes is really possible without any big changes in the application and to produce the perfectly good results ( not fake results ). These times was produced by an AMD Duron-1800 processor with an optimized app.

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                                        Message 3003 - Posted 14 Jun 2006 10:17:37 UTC - in response to Message 2999.

                                          Last modified: 14 Jun 2006 11:09:02 UTC

                                          1 - 2 minutes ? but using what machine ?
                                          How is possible to get these super short times ?

                                          Yes, 1-2 minutes is really possible without any big changes in the application and to produce the perfectly good results ( not fake results ). These times was produced by an AMD Duron-1800 processor with an optimized app.


                                          Where do i get that fast Duron? I need that. I will buy it if it is that faast. But i think the server has to be prepared for that much traffic, when all computers use Akos-special-client. If that is true Akos should get the nobelprice!

                                          Edit: I have done a little math. I saw that Akos Pentium M 1.8 Ghz doing one workunit in minimum 30 seconds to maximum 60 seconds. Another Pentium M 1.76 Ghz without Akos optimications doing one Wu in 3600 to 3800 seconds. http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/show_host_detail.php?hostid=9497

                                          When every computer from the SZTAKI project would use Akos-client it would boost the computing Power 60 Fold. !!! Now we have about 2 Teraflops. Then we could have 100 - 120 Teraflops. Two Teraflops is kind of peanuts. Think big. This sounds almost too good to be true.
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                                          Message 3004 - Posted 14 Jun 2006 13:41:10 UTC

                                            One super Hot dual core dual AMD Opteron 275 system, crunches a unit in about 660 to 1700 seconds using the original 1.12 client.
                                            http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/results.php?hostid=16469&offset=1620

                                            The crunching system has to be reworked. Then there it would be neccesary to make batches of 40 to 100 workunits per upload download cycle.

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                                            Message 3006 - Posted 14 Jun 2006 17:46:10 UTC - in response to Message 3004.

                                              The bug of the scheduler making unnecessary entries in the database for an already known host is now gone, that\'s why you should see a decreased (but accurate) number shown on the homepage as the number of hosts...

                                              Meanwhile, the new algorithm is still being tested. We wanted to release it with our new boinc-api, but it seems that it\'s being delayed so most probably we\'ll stick to the old one :(
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                                              Message 3008 - Posted 14 Jun 2006 21:51:34 UTC

                                                Last modified: 14 Jun 2006 21:56:16 UTC

                                                our new boinc-api

                                                What do you mean ?
                                                it\'s being delayed

                                                What\'s the problem ?
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                                                Message 3009 - Posted 14 Jun 2006 21:54:14 UTC - in response to Message 2999.

                                                  Last modified: 14 Jun 2006 21:57:02 UTC

                                                  1 - 2 minutes ? but using what machine ?
                                                  How is possible to get these super short times ?

                                                  Yes, 1-2 minutes is really possible without any big changes in the application and to produce the perfectly good results ( not fake results ). These times was produced by an AMD Duron-1800 processor with an optimized app.

                                                  May i can ask you what did you optimize to get these short cpu times ?

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                                                  Message 3010 - Posted 14 Jun 2006 22:21:19 UTC - in response to Message 3009.

                                                    Last modified: 14 Jun 2006 22:31:39 UTC

                                                    1 - 2 minutes ? but using what machine ?
                                                    How is possible to get these super short times ?

                                                    Yes, 1-2 minutes is really possible without any big changes in the application and to produce the perfectly good results ( not fake results ). These times was produced by an AMD Duron-1800 processor with an optimized app.

                                                    May i can ask you what did you optimize to get these short cpu times ?

                                                    The official app does lots of multiplications on all searching levels, but their results are usually used on the next level or later. The modified code executes only the needed multiplications before comparations, and uses an unrolled code (12 levels) with faster comparations ( at least Pentium-II needed ), and the deep search routine uses a static array instead of dinamicals and the calculated datas are stored on the fpu stack on the first 7 level. It would be also possible for all ( 12 leveles ), but the results would be much more precise than the official in this case and the validator doesn\'t tolerate it.

                                                    Here is an older code: sdg11207 (P-II, K7 or newer CPU requested)
                                                    It\'s only about 10-12 times faster than the offical, but it\'s free from a stack-overflow error. It isn\'t fixed in sdg11208 yet...
                                                    But probably i will not try to do it, because the new application is coming...

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                                                    Message 3013 - Posted 15 Jun 2006 13:41:49 UTC - in response to Message 3010.

                                                      Last modified: 15 Jun 2006 13:42:01 UTC

                                                      Thank you very much Akosf !!!!!!
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                                                      Message 3014 - Posted 15 Jun 2006 16:13:38 UTC - in response to Message 3006.

                                                        The bug of the scheduler making unnecessary entries in the database for an already known host is now gone, that\'s why you should see a decreased (but accurate) number shown on the homepage as the number of hosts...


                                                        What about fixing the merge hosts bug, so we can clean up our hosts lists? All of those incorrectly created hosts don\'t seem to want to merge. Generally, the merge results in an error message that says:

                                                        missing or bad parameter: id_1

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                                                        Message 3015 - Posted 15 Jun 2006 21:24:01 UTC - in response to Message 3010.

                                                          Last modified: 15 Jun 2006 21:35:42 UTC

                                                          1 - 2 minutes ? but using what machine ?
                                                          How is possible to get these super short times ?

                                                          Yes, 1-2 minutes is really possible without any big changes in the application and to produce the perfectly good results ( not fake results ). These times was produced by an AMD Duron-1800 processor with an optimized app.

                                                          May i can ask you what did you optimize to get these short cpu times ?

                                                          The official app does lots of multiplications on all searching levels, but their results are usually used on the next level or later. The modified code executes only the needed multiplications before comparations, and uses an unrolled code (12 levels) with faster comparations ( at least Pentium-II needed ), and the deep search routine uses a static array instead of dinamicals and the calculated datas are stored on the fpu stack on the first 7 level. It would be also possible for all ( 12 leveles ), but the results would be much more precise than the official in this case and the validator doesn\'t tolerate it.

                                                          Here is an older code: sdg11207 (P-II, K7 or newer CPU requested)
                                                          It\'s only about 10-12 times faster than the offical, but it\'s free from a stack-overflow error. It isn\'t fixed in sdg11208 yet...
                                                          But probably i will not try to do it, because the new application is coming...

                                                          \"It\'s only about 10-12 times faster\" : i like the \"only\" ;) :)
                                                          What would be the limit ?

                                                          It would be also possible to integrate your ideas into any Sztaki application, for all platforms supported by the project ?

                                                          And what would happen if you add in your modified code SSE(2) optimizations ?
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                                                          Message 3016 - Posted 15 Jun 2006 22:16:20 UTC

                                                            Last modified: 15 Jun 2006 22:20:11 UTC

                                                            Basically, inlining functions, loop unrolling and loop optimisation are things, a good C compiler could do - if you let him. The coder of the C source has to help the compiler a little though.

                                                            Compiler code optimisations are not as efficient as assembly language optimisations of course, they are still limited to module \"borders\" whereas assembly optimisations don\'t have to respect that.

                                                            10x faster than the original version is quite extreme - I wonder if the original one was compiled for space savings instead of using all code optimisations a compiler can do

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                                                            Message 3017 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 1:03:26 UTC - in response to Message 3015.

                                                              \"It\'s only about 10-12 times faster\" : i like the \"only\" ;) :)
                                                              What would be the limit ?
                                                              So... You can always is a faster routine... It needs only time...
                                                              Here is: sdg11208
                                                              It\'s about 30 times faster than the official.

                                                              It would be also possible to integrate your ideas into any Sztaki application, for all platforms supported by the project ?
                                                              Everything is possible... :-)

                                                              And what would happen if you add in your modified code SSE(2) optimizations ?
                                                              Is it important?
                                                              Perhaps it would be a bit faster. ( a bit: 0 - 50 % )

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                                                              Message 3018 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 1:54:52 UTC - in response to Message 3017.

                                                                It would be also possible to integrate your ideas into any Sztaki application, for all platforms supported by the project ?
                                                                Everything is possible... :-)

                                                                A good question is now that it\'s that fast, can the scope of the work unit be increased (do more work)?

                                                                With sdg11208 finishing work units so quickly it looks like the disk is slowing it down--that is the CPU becomes idle while the next wu is loaded.

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                                                                Message 3020 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 3:43:41 UTC - in response to Message 3017.

                                                                  \"It\'s only about 10-12 times faster\" : i like the \"only\" ;) :)
                                                                  What would be the limit ?
                                                                  So... You can always is a faster routine... It needs only time...
                                                                  Here is: sdg11208
                                                                  It\'s about 30 times faster than the official.

                                                                  It would be also possible to integrate your ideas into any Sztaki application, for all platforms supported by the project ?
                                                                  Everything is possible... :-)

                                                                  And what would happen if you add in your modified code SSE(2) optimizations ?
                                                                  Is it important?
                                                                  Perhaps it would be a bit faster. ( a bit: 0 - 50 % )



                                                                  That it is the quality ? sdg11208
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                                                                  Message 3023 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 8:30:56 UTC - in response to Message 3010.

                                                                    Here is an older code: sdg11207 (P-II, K7 or newer CPU requested)
                                                                    It\'s only about 10-12 times faster than the offical, but it\'s free from a stack-overflow error. It isn\'t fixed in sdg11208 yet...
                                                                    But probably i will not try to do it, because the new application is coming...


                                                                    It seems to me, that sdg11208 has problem with stack-overflow. I have two questions:

                                                                    1. Reults from 1.1208 are the same as from original aplication? Not the same problem as with 1.1203?

                                                                    2. How many times happens stack-overflow? 1.1208 is about 5 times faster then 1.1207 - if the stack-overflow is commonly each sixth or seventh WU (or infrequently) so the 1.1208 can be better then 1.1207, because it get more (in total) valid results then 1.1207 in same time.
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                                                                    Message 3026 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 9:53:31 UTC - in response to Message 3023.

                                                                      Last modified: 16 Jun 2006 9:55:30 UTC

                                                                      It seems to me, that sdg11208 has problem with stack-overflow.

                                                                      I arrived back from work at dawn. I couldn\'t sleep so i fixed this bug.

                                                                      I have two questions:

                                                                      1. Reults from 1.1208 are the same as from original aplication?

                                                                      sdg11208 simulates the \'NaN\' problem to also produce the same \'dummy\' results that you get with the official app. It would be much faster without this \'dummy\'-simulation. Possible that sdg11208 doesn\'t find all of these dummies, but i didn\'t find differences with 250 WUs.

                                                                      Not the same problem as with 1.1203?

                                                                      The results of sdg11203 were good, but sdg11203 dropped out all of dummies ( not the script on the server ), so perhaps you didn\'t get credits for the good results ( good for science, bad for you ).

                                                                      2. How many times happens stack-overflow?

                                                                      In wich program? :)

                                                                      1.1208 is about 5 times faster then 1.1207 - if the stack-overflow is commonly each sixth or seventh WU (or infrequently) so the 1.1208 can be better then 1.1207, because it get more (in total) valid results then 1.1207 in same time.

                                                                      It isn\'t a good approach. This is a scientific project, not a race.
                                                                      Here isn\'t any admissible fault. One fault... and the project doesn\'t reach its purpose.
                                                                      It would be only a planet heater project. :)

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                                                                      Message 3027 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 12:04:36 UTC

                                                                        Not even one stack overflow after a few hundred results on various CPU types (P4, P3s, Xeon, Athlon XP), I think the earth will not blow up soon - at least not caused by sdg11208 ;-)

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                                                                        Message 3028 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 13:58:59 UTC - in response to Message 3027.

                                                                          Well, woow! Seems like Akosf\'s help is causing some strange things...Have you seen the performance? Well, before the optimization we thought that it\'s accurate, now I\'m not so sure...we\'ll figure it out
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                                                                          Message 3029 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 14:17:45 UTC

                                                                            Last modified: 16 Jun 2006 14:41:40 UTC

                                                                            I think you need some new servers to handle the massive load, that takes place when more than a handful of SZDG-Users switch their computer to Akos Feketes optimized application. That is just the tip of the iceberg. As i said before 2 teraflops are peanuts to that, what the computers of SZDG are capable of. I hope that the optimizations will be in the official application soon, because i use a linux computer.

                                                                            If you want to compare some results, look here:
                                                                            http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/workunit.php?wuid=984923

                                                                            As you can see there, the the hot AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3400+ needs the most processing time (2400 seconds). Akos old Duron needs for the same unit just 100 seconds. Thats 24 times faster than a much faster computer with the standard client.

                                                                            Greetings vonHalenbach
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                                                                            Message 3030 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 15:18:26 UTC

                                                                              Much larger work units would also help solve the problem.
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                                                                              Message 3032 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 16:50:18 UTC

                                                                                Last modified: 16 Jun 2006 16:51:57 UTC

                                                                                could there be some better organisation of information about optimised apps, even after searching for quite a while, i still could not determine which is the latest stable version of Akos\'s app, prehaps an \"optimised app\" thread, like the one at einstein, where new versions of, and comments about, optimised apps are posted, so that it\'s easy to keep track, and to know which version(s) are safe to use
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                                                                                Message 3033 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 16:51:57 UTC - in response to Message 3028.

                                                                                  Well, woow! Seems like Akosf\'s help is causing some strange things...Have you seen the performance? Well, before the optimization we thought that it\'s accurate, now I\'m not so sure...we\'ll figure it out


                                                                                  I think the increasing is realistic.


                                                                                  For a while I added 14 CPUs at 100% - but with only between 1/20 and 1/30 processing time those 14 CPUs would be like some 300 additional CPUs with the \"factory\" client.

                                                                                  I later reduced to 50% ressource share - but that\'s still like 150 CPUs - and of course I told my team mates to DL the optimized client and I\'m sure several did.

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                                                                                  Message 3035 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 20:36:35 UTC

                                                                                    I could optimise some additional program parts too.
                                                                                    sdg11209

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                                                                                    Message 3036 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 21:14:53 UTC

                                                                                      I think most important for Adam is, that you could tell which unit is processed with the standard-client and which is processed with Akos-client. I am courious what the mathematicans say to those superfast results. Akos should get the nobelprize for his optimisations!
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                                                                                      Message 3037 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 21:26:29 UTC - in response to Message 3036.

                                                                                        I think most important for Adam is, that you could tell which unit is processed with the standard-client and which is processed with Akos-client. I am courious what the mathematicans say to those superfast results. Akos should get the nobelprize for his optimisations!

                                                                                        Yeah, he is hot as dynamite :p

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                                                                                        Message 3038 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 21:47:13 UTC - in response to Message 3035.

                                                                                          I could optimise some additional program parts too.
                                                                                          sdg11209

                                                                                          Akos, do you never sleep? Pentium M 2.0GHz sample of first 12 results from sdg11209 shows average time of 103.5 seconds per WU against average of 121.5 seconds per WU for sdg11208, or about another 15% improvement - 35 times or so faster than the stock application I guess. Is that about what we are expecting?
                                                                                          Starting up these latest applications is a bit like sitting on the bridge of the Millennium Falcon during a jump to lightspeed - suddenly everything rushes by!
                                                                                          Congratulations yet again. Mike

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                                                                                          Message 3039 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 21:53:05 UTC

                                                                                            Last modified: 16 Jun 2006 21:58:01 UTC

                                                                                            The assimilator runs dry! Please start it again, or the performance goes down again. Or setup some new assimilators. Not enough Wus to crunch.

                                                                                            And by the way Akos AMD Duron is now the fastest computer in the statistk!
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                                                                                            Message 3040 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 21:57:12 UTC

                                                                                              Last modified: 16 Jun 2006 22:26:40 UTC

                                                                                              The WU generator has been replaced with sdga1109s


                                                                                              edit : hm ... it just ran but now it stopped again


                                                                                              wdit2 : There seems to be some work going on, the status page keeps switching language - now it\'s quite clear that Asszimilátor means Assimilator :-)

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                                                                                              Message 3041 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 22:41:15 UTC

                                                                                                Last modified: 16 Jun 2006 23:01:26 UTC

                                                                                                I suspect that the assimilator is desperately trying to fill the database with wus to crunch, but the new demand is way bigger, than the assimilator can produce. That is just a thought. I might be wrong. The numbers of the provided Wus were 1 then 4 then 2... The assimilator seems to work. The number of wus in the database is steadily growing too. Today early in the morning the number of provided Wus were around 37.000 or so and was rapidliy shrinking in the evening.
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                                                                                                Message 3042 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 22:51:06 UTC

                                                                                                  Last modified: 16 Jun 2006 22:51:32 UTC

                                                                                                  Nothing that you and me can do here.
                                                                                                  Need to wait.
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                                                                                                  Message 3043 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 23:01:21 UTC - in response to Message 3035.

                                                                                                    Last modified: 16 Jun 2006 23:06:57 UTC

                                                                                                    I could optimise some additional program parts too.
                                                                                                    sdg11209

                                                                                                    It\'s as fast as the light!! :D Or faster! :)
                                                                                                    Thx!
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                                                                                                    Message 3044 - Posted 16 Jun 2006 23:03:27 UTC - in response to Message 3043.

                                                                                                      I could optimise some additional program parts too.
                                                                                                      sdg11209

                                                                                                      It\'s fast as the light!! :D Or faster! :)
                                                                                                      Thx!

                                                                                                      ... a side effect of working on the 12th dimension ? ;-)

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                                                                                                      Message 3049 - Posted 17 Jun 2006 8:03:27 UTC - in response to Message 3047.

                                                                                                        Now the problem is the limitation of 500wus / day

                                                                                                        And on other hand, that problem is SZTAKI bug that generates new hostID every time BAM contacts server. So, one may end up with 1k host overnight!
                                                                                                        Please, fix that too - it is a known bug for weeks.

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                                                                                                        Message 3053 - Posted 17 Jun 2006 11:56:10 UTC - in response to Message 3032.

                                                                                                          Last modified: 17 Jun 2006 12:53:32 UTC

                                                                                                          could there be some better organisation of information about optimised apps, even after searching for quite a while, i still could not determine which is the latest stable version of Akos\'s app, prehaps an \"optimised app\" thread, like the one at einstein, where new versions of, and comments about, optimised apps are posted, so that it\'s easy to keep track, and to know which version(s) are safe to use

                                                                                                          The threads are opened now
                                                                                                          AkosF. optimised applications Links

                                                                                                          About AkosF. optimised applications

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                                                                                                          Message 3056 - Posted 17 Jun 2006 12:51:50 UTC - in response to Message 3038.

                                                                                                            Akos, do you never sleep?

                                                                                                            Hm...
                                                                                                            Quote from one of my colleague:
                                                                                                            \'Akos can sleep in a car too... alone and over 160 km/h\'
                                                                                                            Pentium M 2.0GHz sample of first 12 results from sdg11209 shows average time of 103.5 seconds per WU against average of 121.5 seconds per WU for sdg11208, or about another 15% improvement - 35 times or so faster than the stock application I guess. Is that about what we are expecting?

                                                                                                            Yes, i measured the same (x35).
                                                                                                            Starting up these latest applications is a bit like sitting on the bridge of the Millennium Falcon during a jump to lightspeed - suddenly everything rushes by!

                                                                                                            :-)

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                                                                                                            Message 3057 - Posted 17 Jun 2006 12:57:20 UTC - in response to Message 3042.

                                                                                                              Nothing that you and me can do here.
                                                                                                              Need to wait.

                                                                                                              The WU generator is running again.

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                                                                                                              Message 3061 - Posted 17 Jun 2006 22:12:34 UTC - in response to Message 3053.

                                                                                                                Last modified: 17 Jun 2006 22:14:55 UTC

                                                                                                                The threads are opened now
                                                                                                                AkosF. optimised applications Links

                                                                                                                OK. I will upload sdg11210 to this thread. (x50)

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                                                                                                                Message 3062 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 1:49:00 UTC - in response to Message 3041.

                                                                                                                  Last modified: 18 Jun 2006 1:59:49 UTC

                                                                                                                  I suspect that the assimilator is desperately trying to fill the database with wus to crunch, but the new demand is way bigger, than the assimilator can produce. That is just a thought. I might be wrong. The numbers of the provided Wus were 1 then 4 then 2... The assimilator seems to work. The number of wus in the database is steadily growing too. Today early in the morning the number of provided Wus were around 37.000 or so and was rapidliy shrinking in the evening.

                                                                                                                  i think you mean work generator.
                                                                                                                  the assimilator adds completed results to the master science database when they\'re finished
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                                                                                                                  Message 3066 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 9:40:23 UTC

                                                                                                                    Ehm, that sounds \"a little difficult\" to get wus from the server (i only get \"no work from project\")
                                                                                                                    I wonder if new work has been turned off until the server can finish to process all returned wus.

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                                                                                                                    Message 3071 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 10:11:53 UTC - in response to Message 3062.

                                                                                                                      I suspect that the assimilator is desperately trying to fill the database with wus to crunch, but the new demand is way bigger, than the assimilator can produce. That is just a thought. I might be wrong. The numbers of the provided Wus were 1 then 4 then 2... The assimilator seems to work. The number of wus in the database is steadily growing too. Today early in the morning the number of provided Wus were around 37.000 or so and was rapidliy shrinking in the evening.

                                                                                                                      i think you mean work generator.
                                                                                                                      the assimilator adds completed results to the master science database when they\'re finished


                                                                                                                      Yes. Sorry, i meant Work Generator.
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                                                                                                                      Message 3075 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 10:56:35 UTC

                                                                                                                        Maybe Adam has set a -max_wus limit, from how I understand it, it will not generate more work if this limit is reached (if there is one).

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                                                                                                                        Message 3079 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 12:48:13 UTC - in response to Message 3075.

                                                                                                                          I know all of you now think that I\'m so stupid that I can\'t make longer WUs. But think as if you were in my case:
                                                                                                                          We have an official version of the application and a not-official. Which users should I support? Those who use the official or those who use the not-official? Because the current length of the WUs are optimized for the official version and if I make longer WUs, those who use the official version will be out of game...

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                                                                                                                          Message 3080 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 12:54:26 UTC - in response to Message 3079.

                                                                                                                            Last modified: 18 Jun 2006 13:04:30 UTC

                                                                                                                            I know all of you now think that I\'m so stupid that I can\'t make longer WUs. But think as if you were in my case:
                                                                                                                            We have an official version of the application and a not-official. Which users should I support? Those who use the official or those who use the not-official? Because the current length of the WUs are optimized for the official version and if I make longer WUs, those who use the official version will be out of game...

                                                                                                                            Adam, you\'re right of course.
                                                                                                                            Increasing the lenght of the wus is not possible because the Linux, MacOS and SunSolaris would be the big losers and that would not be fair and acceptable for people and the Project.

                                                                                                                            edit : but you\'re wrong when you write \"I know all of you now think that I\'m so stupid...\" \"oops\" ;)
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                                                                                                                            Message 3081 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 12:59:52 UTC

                                                                                                                              Adam, can you say us how many days left for current dimension?

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                                                                                                                              Message 3082 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 13:00:24 UTC - in response to Message 3079.

                                                                                                                                Of course the official application has to set the measure for the WU size.

                                                                                                                                My assumption about the \"-max_wus limit\" was because I think that the WU generator doesn\'t create anything at all at the moment.

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                                                                                                                                Message 3083 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 13:13:38 UTC

                                                                                                                                  I suppose one could change the the setting from max work units/day per processor to max outstanding work units/day (results not yet returned). That way the machines which are running the 50x optimized client and have returned results could get more work?
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                                                                                                                                  Message 3086 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 13:44:35 UTC - in response to Message 3080.

                                                                                                                                    I know all of you now think that I\'m so stupid that I can\'t make longer WUs. But think as if you were in my case:
                                                                                                                                    We have an official version of the application and a not-official. Which users should I support? Those who use the official or those who use the not-official? Because the current length of the WUs are optimized for the official version and if I make longer WUs, those who use the official version will be out of game...

                                                                                                                                    Adam, you\'re right of course.
                                                                                                                                    Increasing the lenght of the wus is not possible because the Linux, MacOS and SunSolaris would be the big losers and that would not be fair and acceptable for people and the Project.

                                                                                                                                    edit : but you\'re wrong when you write \"I know all of you now think that I\'m so stupid...\" \"oops\" ;)

                                                                                                                                    I agree completely on both points. This is a good project with a good team. The Akos effect is both an unexpected benefit and an unexpected challenge to a project. If the project can react to the challenge (as has happened at Einstein) the benefits to the project can be very positive and significant. To do this it is going to be useful to have a dialogue with Akos about how to incorporate some of his improvements into the basic application to the benefit of all users with all types of computer, and I would like to hope that is happening here too, or will happen soon. Then you are in a position to consider bigger WUs for all.

                                                                                                                                    In the meantime, the project needs to protect itself and the whole user base from the spike effect that a major optimisation will have, and keep the WUs flowing to everyone and prevent the servers getting swamped. Banning the optimised application is probably not desirable, you are getting your results much faster and keeping many significant users interested. But the effect has to be controlled until the benefits can be properly incorporated. One way this could be done is by lowering the maximum number of WUs allowed per computer per day from what I think is a very generous 500. Say 200, Adam will have the best idea what is a reasonable value. This won\'t affect the non-Windows users as they are not reaching 200 by a long way, but it would help spread the work that can be generated each day around the whole user base. If a PC running the optimised application uses up the quota, too bad, hopefully it is running other projects too which will keep it busy until the next day. Einstein has a limit set at 32, and that causes a little grief but nothing major. If the project does this or finds other ways of managing the effect, it has the chance to benefit greatly and fairly quickly. Good luck Adam.

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                                                                                                                                    Message 3090 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 15:09:23 UTC

                                                                                                                                      Last modified: 18 Jun 2006 15:10:53 UTC

                                                                                                                                      Adam, I also don\'t think that anybody of SZTAKI team is stupid.
                                                                                                                                      (I wrote the same reason why WU can\'t be simply enlarged on Czech BOINC forum couple hours before you posted here. Albeit it had also different conotation: imagine a cruncher letting his Intel box running 24/7 for one month. Then, a magic happens and rapid optimalization goes true - an overnight cruncher on X2 does the same job in couple of hours.)
                                                                                                                                      There is a need for new oficial version of app, I think. I guess \"adaptation\" and perhaps \"cooperation\" are good words and on place...like what we have seen on Einstein.

                                                                                                                                      Do we know any results from mathematic\'s experts on precission of what we computed so far?

                                                                                                                                      Any chance for a fix of new-host-on-every-contact via BAM?
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                                                                                                                                      Message 3091 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 15:22:12 UTC - in response to Message 3090.

                                                                                                                                        Last modified: 18 Jun 2006 15:26:28 UTC

                                                                                                                                        ....
                                                                                                                                        Any chance for a fix of new-host-on-every-contact via BAM?

                                                                                                                                        Some ideas are here, waiting for the definitive solution (upgrading the server code).


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                                                                                                                                        Message 3093 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 16:16:06 UTC

                                                                                                                                          Thanks Nightbird,
                                                                                                                                          I\'m familiar with this \"solution\" but everytime BOINC contacts server, new machine gets \"home\" venue without chance of getting \"---\" from the web-base setting.

                                                                                                                                          After filling hostid in client_state manually, it worked.
                                                                                                                                          (lucky one, \'cause rpc_seqno was fine).

                                                                                                                                          Actually, I was asking if these is an ETA of upgrading server-side code...

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                                                                                                                                          Message 3094 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 17:10:29 UTC - in response to Message 3086.

                                                                                                                                            I\'m not a happy camper right now.
                                                                                                                                            There are 200,000 WUs being processed and I can not get even one WU for my computer.
                                                                                                                                            I saw that there were 700 available and I tried to get one by updating and got a message of no work from project. They were all gone in a few seconds.

                                                                                                                                            This is not right for someone that has been with this project since Aug. 2005.

                                                                                                                                            As a solution there has to be a limit set (maybe 32) as mentioned below to give us a chance.

                                                                                                                                            Thanks Adam for helping us out.

                                                                                                                                            Richard

                                                                                                                                            In the meantime, the project needs to protect itself and the whole user base from the spike effect that a major optimisation will have, and keep the WUs flowing to everyone and prevent the servers getting swamped. Banning the optimised application is probably not desirable, you are getting your results much faster and keeping many significant users interested. But the effect has to be controlled until the benefits can be properly incorporated. One way this could be done is by lowering the maximum number of WUs allowed per computer per day from what I think is a very generous 500. Say 200, Adam will have the best idea what is a reasonable value. This won\'t affect the non-Windows users as they are not reaching 200 by a long way, but it would help spread the work that can be generated each day around the whole user base. If a PC running the optimised application uses up the quota, too bad, hopefully it is running other projects too which will keep it busy until the next day. Einstein has a limit set at 32, and that causes a little grief but nothing major. If the project does this or finds other ways of managing the effect, it has the chance to benefit greatly and fairly quickly. Good luck Adam.


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                                                                                                                                            Message 3098 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 17:49:28 UTC - in response to Message 3094.

                                                                                                                                              Adam, can you say us how many days left for current dimension?


                                                                                                                                              Rebirther, as I\'ve already written, I will be able to tell this with the release of the new application.

                                                                                                                                              guess \"adaptation\" and perhaps \"cooperation\" are good words and on place...like what we have seen on Einstein.

                                                                                                                                              Any chance for a fix of new-host-on-every-contact via BAM?


                                                                                                                                              Honza, adaptation and cooperation are good words indeed...so far I haven\'t been aware of this, but now I\'ve realized why boinc doesn\'t support the protection of the application. Because it\'s not really the job of boinc, but the application. In the future we won\'t allow the home-optimization of our application, because it leads to a situation like this, which is bad for those users using the official app. So with the new algortihm we\'ll try to find out some other way of \"cooperation\" and sure we\'ll \"adapt\" to the situation soon...

                                                                                                                                              The \"fix of new-host-on-every-contact\" would took me a second, but I\'m again blocked here by my bosses, who refuse to allow this. Why? That\'s another story and right now I don\'t have the time to tell it, but if things get straight we\'ll get back to this...and until than I\'ll continue the fight to make them allow the update...
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                                                                                                                                              Message 3099 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 17:59:33 UTC - in response to Message 3098.

                                                                                                                                                Honza, adaptation and cooperation are good words indeed...so far I haven\'t been aware of this, but now I\'ve realized why boinc doesn\'t support the protection of the application. Because it\'s not really the job of boinc, but the application. In the future we won\'t allow the home-optimization of our application, because it leads to a situation like this, which is bad for those users using the official app.


                                                                                                                                                I started crunching with Einstein before Akosf put up his optimized apps. I switched over when they came out and noticed how the project took off rapidly. I didn\'t move many of my resources here to Sztaki until his optimized apps came here, as well.

                                                                                                                                                I\'m curious as to why the leaders of Einstein (coders and science project leaders alike) were overjoyed to have someone willing to help speed up their progress, yet the leaders here seem to have downright contempt towards it. If the results produced are not compromised (which they do not appear to be based on validator results), why look down at those who decide to help the project by returning results faster?
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                                                                                                                                                Message 3100 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 18:34:47 UTC

                                                                                                                                                  Adam, sorry to hear about constrains that ties up your hands.
                                                                                                                                                  (we\'ve been through this on CPDN several times; Open University running classic phpBB forum where volunteer administrators like me and even project team members got no ftp and SQL access to update forum code, BBC project with some external demands etc...it\'s also a long story as you can surely imagine).

                                                                                                                                                  ad. protection. BOINC has some built-in protection while downloading files but it also support anonymous platform - I guess because it\'s open source.
                                                                                                                                                  I agree that project have to support oficial application and any home-made code is on participant\'s risk. But until application returns valid results, I don\'t see it bad and (according to my experience) it would be difficult to make crunchers think otherwise especially in case where app is running significantly faster (hence more effecient with lower cost).
                                                                                                                                                  (a little OT, but analogy is on place: SETI had been running code that was both slow and scientific outdated for YEARS. Many participants quit because they see it as wasting their CPU time, hardware, electricity hence money.)
                                                                                                                                                  Volunteers provide their CPU cycles, bandwidth, time etc. and - I think - their \"natural\" wish is that it help the science in an effecient way.

                                                                                                                                                  I say: validity and scientific results first, optimalizations where possible, credit at last.

                                                                                                                                                  Glad to hear about new application.
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                                                                                                                                                  Message 3101 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 18:54:52 UTC - in response to Message 3098.



                                                                                                                                                    Honza, adaptation and cooperation are good words indeed...so far I haven\'t been aware of this, but now I\'ve realized why boinc doesn\'t support the protection of the application. Because it\'s not really the job of boinc, but the application. In the future we won\'t allow the home-optimization of our application, because it leads to a situation like this, which is bad for those users using the official app. So with the new algortihm we\'ll try to find out some other way of \"cooperation\" and sure we\'ll \"adapt\" to the situation soon...



                                                                                                                                                    I think it is time again for me to speak a few words about your statement. I see Akos optimizations generally as a good thing. Why? Because they give the SZTAKI-project the opportunity to do work more effectively (for free). I don\'t say a word about you that you don\'t have opened the sourcecode of your application to revision by other programmers. As i see in my opinion you have not helped Akos in the least. Your statement was: \"MTA SZTAKI takes no responsibility for applications that haven\'t been approved by the project.\"

                                                                                                                                                    Have you tested the results of the optimized clients? Are they accurate? What is your statement about that? Maybe we should ask why is it possible, that a mathematical application can be optimized to run 30 times faster? Is the sourecode so ugly or sloppy written, that you not dare to show it another developper, because he might laugh you in the face? Or is it the compiler that produces such unoptimized code? When you say it is closed source software, it is your job to find the best programmer and compiler for the job.
                                                                                                                                                    The last statement from you was something like: \"Some users were whining, because they can get no workunits to crunch. To prevent that in the future we do forbit the further optimizations of the client.\" Your job would be to provide new servers or another application or even an idea to make things work. At last i give you the hint to do as your boss says. He might be right.

                                                                                                                                                    Greetings vonHalenbach
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                                                                                                                                                    Message 3103 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 20:52:06 UTC - in response to Message 3094.

                                                                                                                                                      I don\'t think the quota system is the problem, 500 per CPU works. The problem is when someone jacks up the numbers of CPUs for the computer, there are some now claiming 8 CPUs on a on systems the can only support 1. They\'re the ones who are causing the problems.

                                                                                                                                                      I\'m not a happy camper right now.
                                                                                                                                                      There are 200,000 WUs being processed and I can not get even one WU for my computer.
                                                                                                                                                      I saw that there were 700 available and I tried to get one by updating and got a message of no work from project. They were all gone in a few seconds.

                                                                                                                                                      This is not right for someone that has been with this project since Aug. 2005.

                                                                                                                                                      As a solution there has to be a limit set (maybe 32) as mentioned below to give us a chance.

                                                                                                                                                      Thanks Adam for helping us out.

                                                                                                                                                      Richard

                                                                                                                                                      In the meantime, the project needs to protect itself and the whole user base from the spike effect that a major optimisation will have, and keep the WUs flowing to everyone and prevent the servers getting swamped. Banning the optimised application is probably not desirable, you are getting your results much faster and keeping many significant users interested. But the effect has to be controlled until the benefits can be properly incorporated. One way this could be done is by lowering the maximum number of WUs allowed per computer per day from what I think is a very generous 500. Say 200, Adam will have the best idea what is a reasonable value. This won\'t affect the non-Windows users as they are not reaching 200 by a long way, but it would help spread the work that can be generated each day around the whole user base. If a PC running the optimised application uses up the quota, too bad, hopefully it is running other projects too which will keep it busy until the next day. Einstein has a limit set at 32, and that causes a little grief but nothing major. If the project does this or finds other ways of managing the effect, it has the chance to benefit greatly and fairly quickly. Good luck Adam.



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                                                                                                                                                      Message 3104 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 21:45:45 UTC

                                                                                                                                                        The maximum quota isn\'t good for wu distributing.
                                                                                                                                                        It\'s only a simple safety thing.

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                                                                                                                                                        Message 3105 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 21:55:48 UTC - in response to Message 3101.

                                                                                                                                                          Last modified: 18 Jun 2006 21:57:37 UTC


                                                                                                                                                          I see Akos optimizations generally as a good thing.


                                                                                                                                                          I think the same, it is our common aim to get results of this project as fast as possible.


                                                                                                                                                          I don\'t say a word about you that you don\'t have opened the sourcecode of your application to revision by other programmers.

                                                                                                                                                          The code is closed-source because it belongs to the Eotvos Lorand Science University.


                                                                                                                                                          As i see in my opinion you have not helped Akos in the least. Your statement was: \"MTA SZTAKI takes no responsibility for applications that haven\'t been approved by the project.\"


                                                                                                                                                          You see it totally wrong. \"Why?\" Because we\'ve been communicating with Akos Fekete about cooperating and we\'ll use his blessed abilities with the new algorithm. The statement written in the news, which you\'ve quoted is neccessary because of the following.

                                                                                                                                                          There are good programmers who help BOINC projects with taking their code, optimizing it and releasing it to the public. Now there are bad programmers, who might say. Hey, I\'ll take their code, inject some nifty virus in the code, make it available to the public and say: HEY, I\'ve got a faster code, you\'ll get more credit, just download this...I hope you get what I mean, and I don\'t have to continue...
                                                                                                                                                          I\'ve talked about this with Akos Fekete as well, he agreed in that we\'ve to protect ourself somehow from bad programmers.


                                                                                                                                                          Have you tested the results of the optimized clients?

                                                                                                                                                          Yes.


                                                                                                                                                          Are they accurate? What is your statement about that?

                                                                                                                                                          You\'ll now, as soon as possible


                                                                                                                                                          Maybe we should ask why is it possible, that a mathematical application can be optimized to run 30 times faster?

                                                                                                                                                          Yes, you should ask Akos Fekete.


                                                                                                                                                          Is the sourecode so ugly or sloppy written, that you not dare to show it another developper, because he might laugh you in the face?

                                                                                                                                                          No.


                                                                                                                                                          Or is it the compiler that produces such unoptimized code?

                                                                                                                                                          No.


                                                                                                                                                          When you say it is closed source software, it is your job to find the best programmer and compiler for the job.

                                                                                                                                                          Yes, you are right. We\'ve the programmer and the compiler for the job


                                                                                                                                                          The last statement from you was something like: \"Some users were whining, because they can get no workunits to crunch. To prevent that in the future we do forbit the further optimizations of the client.\"

                                                                                                                                                          I think you totally missunderstood something. We\'ll support optimization officially. We\'ll even provide optimized core_clients in the future. But we can\'t support home-optimalization in any way, because of the \"bad programmers\", who were introduced a few lines above, and whose aim is to get a nice virus/backdoor running on your computer, vonHalenbach. Would you like that? I don\'t think so.


                                                                                                                                                          Your job would be to provide new servers or another application or even an idea to make things work.

                                                                                                                                                          Great ideas takes some time to develop...


                                                                                                                                                          At last i give you the hint to do as your boss says. He might be right.

                                                                                                                                                          Yes, maybe he\'s right, maybe he isn\'t...


                                                                                                                                                          Greetings vonHalenbach

                                                                                                                                                          Greetings, Adam Kornafeld

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                                                                                                                                                          Message 3106 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 22:02:24 UTC - in response to Message 3104.

                                                                                                                                                            The maximum quota isn\'t good for wu distributing.
                                                                                                                                                            It\'s only a simple safety thing.


                                                                                                                                                            It is when the system can not handle the load put on the servers. It also removes work that may not be completed in time from the system. Even with an optimized client a P4 2.8 can\'t finish 4000 workunits in a reasonable amount of time. Maybe the optimized clients shouldn\'t be used unless it\'s an offical release of the client.

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                                                                                                                                                            Message 3107 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 22:11:12 UTC

                                                                                                                                                              Hi Adam! Thank you for your fast and open reply. That were the questions i wanted to be answered. Your answer was satisfactioning for me and i agree with you.

                                                                                                                                                              Very nice greetings and my apologise
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                                                                                                                                                              Message 3108 - Posted 18 Jun 2006 22:44:19 UTC - in response to Message 3105.


                                                                                                                                                                [quote]
                                                                                                                                                                Maybe we should ask why is it possible, that a mathematical application can be optimized to run 30 times faster?

                                                                                                                                                                Yes, you should ask Akos Fekete.


                                                                                                                                                                Is the sourecode so ugly or sloppy written, that you not dare to show it another developper, because he might laugh you in the face?

                                                                                                                                                                No.


                                                                                                                                                                Or is it the compiler that produces such unoptimized code?

                                                                                                                                                                No.
                                                                                                                                                                Greetings, Adam Kornafeld


                                                                                                                                                                It is not uncommon that normally optimised C or C++ code for game algorithms gets sped up even by order(s) of magnitude by specialists on low level details of the target system.

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                                                                                                                                                                Message 3109 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 1:04:27 UTC - in response to Message 3079.

                                                                                                                                                                  I know all of you now think that I\'m so stupid that I can\'t make longer WUs. But think as if you were in my case:
                                                                                                                                                                  We have an official version of the application and a not-official. Which users should I support? Those who use the official or those who use the not-official? Because the current length of the WUs are optimized for the official version and if I make longer WUs, those who use the official version will be out of game...



                                                                                                                                                                  And Multiplied by 2?

                                                                                                                                                                  This will make that 2 hours 30 per 1 wus not optimized.

                                                                                                                                                                  That will decrease by 2 the constraints on the serveur.
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                                                                                                                                                                  Message 3110 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 1:58:33 UTC - in response to Message 3109.

                                                                                                                                                                    Last modified: 19 Jun 2006 2:24:54 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                    I know all of you now think that I\'m so stupid that I can\'t make longer WUs. But think as if you were in my case:
                                                                                                                                                                    We have an official version of the application and a not-official. Which users should I support? Those who use the official or those who use the not-official? Because the current length of the WUs are optimized for the official version and if I make longer WUs, those who use the official version will be out of game...



                                                                                                                                                                    And Multiplied by 2?

                                                                                                                                                                    This will make that 2 hours 30 per 1 wus not optimized.

                                                                                                                                                                    That will decrease by 2 the constraints on the serveur.

                                                                                                                                                                    Obviously you didn\'t understand what Adam said :
                                                                                                                                                                    Because the current length of the WUs are optimized for the official version and if I make longer WUs, those who use the official version will be out of game...

                                                                                                                                                                    The length of the wus will not be increased.
                                                                                                                                                                    Increasing the length of the wus would be (only and presently) \"interesting\" for people who are running an optimised application because they will go on to do wus in short time.
                                                                                                                                                                    I\'m even not sure that it would be easier for All people to get work.
                                                                                                                                                                    The Project doesn\'t want to lose crunchers [according BoincStats, 1614 Linux users, 528 Mac users and 25 SunOS users without forgotting xxxx Windows users] who presently don\'t use because they don\'t know, don\'t want or can\'t use optimised applications.

                                                                                                                                                                    Beyond the fight...

                                                                                                                                                                    edit :
                                                                                                                                                                    \"interesting\" to see a Sempron with 8 cpus...

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                                                                                                                                                                    Message 3111 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 2:12:28 UTC - in response to Message 3110.

                                                                                                                                                                      Last modified: 19 Jun 2006 2:13:56 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                      ...
                                                                                                                                                                      edit :
                                                                                                                                                                      \"interesting\" to see a Sempron with 8 cpus...



                                                                                                                                                                      The quota ... um ...

                                                                                                                                                                      ... one NEEDS at least 4 CPUs per PC - that impresses girls ;-)

                                                                                                                                                                      (the server does not allow a multiplier of more than 4 for the quota anyway so even a 32 CPU system would not have more than 2000/day)

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                                                                                                                                                                      Message 3112 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 2:32:02 UTC - in response to Message 3110.

                                                                                                                                                                        Last modified: 19 Jun 2006 2:38:56 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                        I know all of you now think that I\'m so stupid that I can\'t make longer WUs. But think as if you were in my case:
                                                                                                                                                                        We have an official version of the application and a not-official. Which users should I support? Those who use the official or those who use the not-official? Because the current length of the WUs are optimized for the official version and if I make longer WUs, those who use the official version will be out of game...



                                                                                                                                                                        And Multiplied by 2?

                                                                                                                                                                        This will make that 2 hours 30 per 1 wus not optimized.

                                                                                                                                                                        That will decrease by 2 the constraints on the serveur.

                                                                                                                                                                        Obviously you didn\'t understand what Adam said :
                                                                                                                                                                        Because the current length of the WUs are optimized for the official version and if I make longer WUs, those who use the official version will be out of game...

                                                                                                                                                                        The length of the wus will not be increased.
                                                                                                                                                                        Increasing the length of the wus would be (only and presently) \"interesting\" for people who are running an optimised application because they will go on to do wus in short time.
                                                                                                                                                                        I\'m even not sure that it would be easier for All people to get work.
                                                                                                                                                                        The Project doesn\'t want to lose crunchers [according BoincStats, 1614 Linux users, 528 Mac users and 25 SunOS users without forgotting xxxx Windows users] who presently don\'t use, don\'t want or can\'t use optimised applications.

                                                                                                                                                                        Beyond the fight...

                                                                                                                                                                        edit :
                                                                                                                                                                        \"interesting\" to see a Sempron with 8 cpus...



                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, But 2 hours 30 is still playe ?

                                                                                                                                                                        For the sempron the reason is that I leaves tomorrow in my granny during 3 days and it is a portable computer I takes wus to hold a few days ;) and as the portable computer will not be conecter with Internet...
                                                                                                                                                                        I go can be to try the connect it to the PC who is conecter with the Net at my granny...
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                                                                                                                                                                        Message 3113 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 2:59:51 UTC - in response to Message 3112.

                                                                                                                                                                          For the sempron the reason is that I leaves tomorrow in my granny during 3 days and it is a portable computer I takes wus to hold a few days ;) and as the portable computer will not be conecter with Internet...
                                                                                                                                                                          I go can be to try the connect it to the PC who is conecter with the Net at my granny...

                                                                                                                                                                          OK,lame but OK, but what about your friends, AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4400+ with 8 CPUs or the ones who changed the # of CPU\'s back to 1?
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                                                                                                                                                                          Message 3114 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 3:23:20 UTC - in response to Message 3113.

                                                                                                                                                                            For the sempron the reason is that I leaves tomorrow in my granny during 3 days and it is a portable computer I takes wus to hold a few days ;) and as the portable computer will not be conecter with Internet...
                                                                                                                                                                            I go can be to try the connect it to the PC who is conecter with the Net at my granny...

                                                                                                                                                                            OK,lame but OK, but what about your friends, AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4400+ with 8 CPUs or the ones who changed the # of CPU\'s back to 1?


                                                                                                                                                                            That makes beautiful one computer he(it) makes 4 wus at the same time but 8 that means that he(it) thus has to double these UC.

                                                                                                                                                                            But this PC does not belong to me it is too powerful lol

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                                                                                                                                                                            Message 3115 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 3:28:52 UTC - in response to Message 3110.

                                                                                                                                                                              The length of the wus will not be increased.

                                                                                                                                                                              Although they\'re quite small as it is, and could be increased severalfold and still be smaller than those from SETI@home Enhanced, for example, it appears that the crunching time is extremely sensitive to the setup parameters. Some readers will recall the \'roller coaster\' we were riding a couple of months ago, while Adam was trying to fine-tune the WU size. I imagine that if it were easy to, say, double the length (without risk of it jumping by an order of magnitude) that would have been done already: the fewer WUs in circulation, the easier it must be to maintain the database.
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                                                                                                                                                                              Message 3117 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 4:49:09 UTC - in response to Message 3086.

                                                                                                                                                                                The Akos effect is both an unexpected benefit and an unexpected challenge to a project. If the project can react to the challenge (as has happened at Einstein) the benefits to the project can be very positive and significant.


                                                                                                                                                                                Banning the optimised application is probably not desirable, you are getting your results much faster ...


                                                                                                                                                                                ...lowering the maximum number of WUs allowed per computer per day from what I think is a very generous 500. Say 200, Adam will have the best idea what is a reasonable value. If a PC running the optimised application uses up the quota, too bad
                                                                                                                                                                                the first 2 quotes and the last seem to conflict. Surely the project would want as much work done as possible, and lowering the quota will prevent that.

                                                                                                                                                                                This won\'t affect the non-Windows users as they are not reaching 200 by a long way, but it would help spread the work that can be generated each day around the whole user base.
                                                                                                                                                                                why have a hosts crunching for another project when Adam could have them crunching for this one?
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                                                                                                                                                                                Profile [AF>HFR>RR] ThierryH
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                                                                                                                                                                                Message 3121 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 8:19:02 UTC - in response to Message 3113.

                                                                                                                                                                                  For the sempron the reason is that I leaves tomorrow in my granny during 3 days and it is a portable computer I takes wus to hold a few days ;) and as the portable computer will not be conecter with Internet...
                                                                                                                                                                                  I go can be to try the connect it to the PC who is conecter with the Net at my granny...

                                                                                                                                                                                  OK,lame but OK, but what about your friends, AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4400+ with 8 CPUs or the ones who changed the # of CPU\'s back to 1?


                                                                                                                                                                                  Quotas are just a sucurity in case of something wrong on the computer. When the computer is stable why not use it all the time. Like Adam said, the goal is to have the maximum of power on the project.
                                                                                                                                                                                  I\'m the creator of this methode and DocMaboul put it in BoincStudio and Trux put it on is Boinc client. On Einstein@home, no one reacts like you. They all said good job and download BoincStudio or Trux patch.
                                                                                                                                                                                  The little fight between Picard team and L\'Alliance Francophone team haven\'t to mask the major goal of the project: makes the maximum results possible.


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                                                                                                                                                                                  ckohler3
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                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 3122 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 11:36:39 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                    hoarding work units to win is at best poor sportmanship and at worst is cheating. i saw a post on your forum saying take all the work and leave none for picard. if 200+ l\' alliance francophone members need to do that to beat 29 team picard members i guess you win. congrats!
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                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 3123 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 11:51:32 UTC - in response to Message 3121.

                                                                                                                                                                                      They all said good job and download BoincStudio or Trux patch.
                                                                                                                                                                                      The little fight between Picard team and L\'Alliance Francophone team haven\'t to mask the major goal of the project: makes the maximum results possible.


                                                                                                                                                                                      No what happens as what happened before is they leave the project for someplace they can find work units and not crunch for SZTAKI. I see that Mephisto94 feels the same about it, and is no longer running SZTAKI.
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                                                                                                                                                                                      Profile [AF>EDLS>Physique] Pas93
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                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 3124 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 12:37:18 UTC - in response to Message 3122.

                                                                                                                                                                                        hoarding work units to win is at best poor sportmanship and at worst is cheating. i saw a post on your forum saying take all the work and leave none for picard. if 200+ l\' alliance francophone members need to do that to beat 29 team picard members i guess you win. congrats!


                                                                                                                                                                                        5% of the members do it ;)


                                                                                                                                                                                        And Mephisto too was not well-informed and it spoke only about the client optimized ;)
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                                                                                                                                                                                        ckohler3
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                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 3125 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 13:00:22 UTC - in response to Message 3124.

                                                                                                                                                                                          hoarding work units to win is at best poor sportmanship and at worst is cheating. i saw a post on your forum saying take all the work and leave none for picard. if 200+ l\' alliance francophone members need to do that to beat 29 team picard members i guess you win. congrats!


                                                                                                                                                                                          5% of the members do it ;)


                                                                                                                                                                                          And Mephisto too was not well-informed and it spoke only about the client optimized ;)


                                                                                                                                                                                          so if 5% of the members are cheating (my opinion) that makes it ok? that statement lacks any sense.
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                                                                                                                                                                                          Profile [AF>EDLS>Physique] Pas93
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                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 3126 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 13:03:51 UTC - in response to Message 3125.

                                                                                                                                                                                            hoarding work units to win is at best poor sportmanship and at worst is cheating. i saw a post on your forum saying take all the work and leave none for picard. if 200+ l\' alliance francophone members need to do that to beat 29 team picard members i guess you win. congrats!


                                                                                                                                                                                            5% of the members do it ;)


                                                                                                                                                                                            And Mephisto too was not well-informed and it spoke only about the client optimized ;)


                                                                                                                                                                                            so if 5% of the members are cheating (my opinion) that makes it ok? that statement lacks any sense.



                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes BS is not instalable at everyone because it is difficult of use

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                                                                                                                                                                                            Profile Narwhal
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                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 3127 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 13:27:38 UTC - in response to Message 3126.

                                                                                                                                                                                              hoarding work units to win is at best poor sportmanship and at worst is cheating. i saw a post on your forum saying take all the work and leave none for picard. if 200+ l\' alliance francophone members need to do that to beat 29 team picard members i guess you win. congrats!


                                                                                                                                                                                              5% of the members do it ;)


                                                                                                                                                                                              And Mephisto too was not well-informed and it spoke only about the client optimized ;)


                                                                                                                                                                                              so if 5% of the members are cheating (my opinion) that makes it ok? that statement lacks any sense.



                                                                                                                                                                                              Yes BS is not instalable at everyone because it is difficult of use


                                                                                                                                                                                              If I read the other forums right BS isn\'t calibrated for SZTAKI (or other projects other than Seti) so it\'s us leaves asking who did the calibrations. It would only be fair that all used the same settings.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Any cheating leads to people leaving a project.
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                                                                                                                                                                                              Lee Carre
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                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 3128 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 13:44:48 UTC - in response to Message 3105.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Last modified: 19 Jun 2006 13:45:51 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                At last i give you the hint to do as your boss says. He might be right.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Yes, maybe he\'s right, maybe he isn\'t...
                                                                                                                                                                                                i have to be sceptible about such things too, generally the people who know best are those who are actually working on the ground, out in the field, not managers
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                                                                                                                                                                                                [AF>HFR>Corsica] DocMaboul
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                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 3129 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 13:59:51 UTC - in response to Message 3127.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If I read the other forums right BS isn\'t calibrated for SZTAKI (or other projects other than Seti) so it\'s us leaves asking who did the calibrations. It would only be fair that all used the same settings.


                                                                                                                                                                                                  On which forums have you read this?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 3130 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 14:30:03 UTC - in response to Message 3129.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    If I read the other forums right BS isn\'t calibrated for SZTAKI (or other projects other than Seti) so it\'s us leaves asking who did the calibrations. It would only be fair that all used the same settings.


                                                                                                                                                                                                    On which forums have you read this?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry mis-read a post (yours)at Rosetta

                                                                                                                                                                                                    DocMaboul wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I\'m developping BoincStudio and I have made some tries with credit correction on Rosetta: there is a problem. Without it, i\'m claiming about 5 or 6 credits per wu. With credit correction, i\'m claming about 10 to 20 more. For me, problem is not comming from BoincStudio but from Rosetta.


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I apologies for this
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                                                                                                                                                                                                    Lee Carre
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                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 3131 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 14:42:39 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                      i think it might be time for a new blog thread, this one is getting rather long
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                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 3132 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 14:54:14 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                        It doesn\'t matter, no work, sending fleet to other project for now.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                        arturg
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                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 3133 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 15:52:36 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Last modified: 19 Jun 2006 16:03:28 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Few remarks:

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1.There are no doubts, that we as intelligent users should use more efficiently tools for science, therefore any restrictions here like dailly quotas must be really necessary, if applied.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          2.Everybody, who runs optimized application should hoard and calculate WUs because that way he prevents slowly applications from wasting computing power and energy, which can be saved that way and better used for other science projects.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          3.To science it doesn\'t matter, what is somebody\'s motivation of using good optimized application, so any it\'s destined usage is positive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          4.Some temporarily credit differences between users, platforms or teams are far less important than science progress, for that reason discussions about that are far less important too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          5.Present situation of project is not typical - high improvment rate - so some \"benefits\" can be not typical as well. No problem.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                          ckohler3
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                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 3135 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 16:09:11 UTC - in response to Message 3133.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Few remarks:

                                                                                                                                                                                                            1.There are no doubts, that we as intelligent users should use more efficiently tools for science, therefore any restrictions here like dailly quotas must be really necessary.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            2.Everybody, who runs optimized application should hoard and calculate WUs because that way he prevents slowly applications from wasting computing power and energy, which can be saved that way and better used for other science projects.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            3.To science it doesn\'t matter, what is somebody\'s motivation of using good optimized application, so any it\'s destined usage is positive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            4.Some temporarily credit differences between users, platforms or teams are far less important than science progress, for that reason discussions about that are far less important too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            5.Present situation of project is not typical - high improvment rate - so some \"benefits\" can be not typical as well. No problem.


                                                                                                                                                                                                            i agree with you on most of your points. on your #2 though i want to understand you correctly. are you saying it\'s ok to manipulate the system so i can get more than the 500 work unit per cpu limit? when and if the project founders say that\'s ok i will do it. that really doesn\'t seem fair to the other crunchers. work units were coming out and some people were using every computer they had to get 2000-4000 work units on each pc.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                            Profile kadam
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                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 3136 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 16:18:27 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Opening new page to continue discussion...
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                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 3139 - Posted 19 Jun 2006 17:30:09 UTC - in response to Message 3135.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Last modified: 19 Jun 2006 17:34:32 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Few remarks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                2.Everybody, who runs optimized application should hoard and calculate WUs because that way he prevents slowly applications from wasting computing power and energy, which can be saved that way and better used for other science projects.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                ...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                i agree with you on most of your points. on your #2 though i want to understand you correctly. are you saying it\'s ok to manipulate the system so i can get more than the 500 work unit per cpu limit? when and if the project founders say that\'s ok i will do it. that really doesn\'t seem fair to the other crunchers. work units were coming out and some people were using every computer they had to get 2000-4000 work units on each pc.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                In this special situation, when large differences between application\'s efficiencies exist and they can crunch it without delay - Yes: They are fair to science, to humanity (more important), to themselves and to these other crunchers, too. If other crunchers crunch for science, they can be happy as well, because more will be crunched at whole. If they crunch for sport, we could say them: it\'s sport ;) - another ones were better.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                But there is another story hidden here: encouraging to participate in more than 1 project. This daily quota restriction may increase usage of computing power by motivating to join to next project, but on the other hand it can decrease it, when participating only in 1 project. What is final influence ? - I don\'t know details.
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