Does SZTAKI have some very, very, very large WU\'s?


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Message boards : Észrevételek, tapasztalatok : Does SZTAKI have some very, very, very large WU\'s?

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Rakarin
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Message 3472 - Posted 12 Jul 2006 10:32:51 UTC

    Hello,

    I appologize in advance for the poor spelling. I\'m writing this without the benefit of a spell checker. Thank you for your patience.

    Currently, this WU is running on my Mac.

    http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/workunit.php?wuid=545

    Now, most work units take about 20-30 minutes to run on my Mac (some even less time).

    *This* work unit has been running for... 15 hours 10 minutes and 52 seconds, the progress is 47.920%, and the estimated time remaining is 8 hours, 3 minutes, 32 seconds. The rest of the SZTAKI WU\'s queued (all at 0%, unstarted), have an estimated time of 32 minutes.

    The Mac the huge WU is running on is this:

    http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/show_host_detail.php?hostid=15965

    It is a PPC Mac that is less than 4 months old. It is the mid-range G5 tower, and BOINC is running on a 2.3 GHz core. The hard drive is SATA (over 150Gb free), and it has 2Gb of ECC RAM, so resources are not a problem. I have not done anything on the Mac in the past two weeks except run system and Norton AV updates, so the processor shouldn\'t be busy with other tasks. It looks like this WU is genuinely huge. Really, really huge.

    Back when SZTAKI started 12th dimention calculations and the computation engine was not optomized, the WU\'s were taking about 14-16 hours on my old G4-500MHz. When I\'ve had \"large\" WU\'s in the past, they usually take about 8-9 hours to run on m G5 or my AMD Athlon XP 3200+.

    Should I be concerned that this WU is taking so long? I\'ll let it run unless you say it\'s a problem.

    Thank you.

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    Message 3477 - Posted 12 Jul 2006 16:47:17 UTC - in response to Message 3472.

      The estimated runtime of the WUs still needs some tweaking...if you feel so you can cancel it and later with some tweak we\'ll process it again
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      Message 3479 - Posted 12 Jul 2006 18:39:47 UTC - in response to Message 3472.

        Last modified: 12 Jul 2006 18:43:26 UTC

        Should I be concerned that this WU is taking so long? I\'ll let it run unless you say it\'s a problem.


        I just finished a 28-hour WU and a 4-hour WU, so it\'s somewhat difficult to judge ahead of time (both had 32-minute estimates.)

        Hang in there.
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        Message 3480 - Posted 12 Jul 2006 19:33:35 UTC - in response to Message 3472.

          Last modified: 12 Jul 2006 19:34:05 UTC

          [Should I be concerned that this WU is taking so long? I\'ll let it run unless you say it\'s a problem.]


          I have ATM 1 Wu that has been running for 44 hours and is at 62% and its due to be retured by 14-7-06 ....

          So leave things running and see how they go..

          Cheers

          Bob
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          Rakarin
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          Message 3482 - Posted 12 Jul 2006 22:48:01 UTC

            I see. Thank you.

            My only concern is that this weekend my computers will go off, and will stay off for about a week. I will also not have internet access. I\'m trying to clear out my BOINC queues now so I don\'t have expired WU\'s when \"normal operations\" resume.

            Hopefully, all my SZTAKI WU\'s will finish.

            Thank you.
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            Message 3502 - Posted 14 Jul 2006 1:03:27 UTC - in response to Message 3477.

              Last modified: 14 Jul 2006 1:04:30 UTC

              The estimated runtime of the WUs still needs some tweaking...if you feel so you can cancel it and later with some tweak we\'ll process it again



              Hi Adam,

              I have just got two WU\'s that have estimated times of over 6 days the first one i aborted the next one the computer downloaded is also over 6 days:

              http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/result.php?resultid=25767
              http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/result.php?resultid=26359

              I will let the second WU run it time out.

              Regards,

              Andrew
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              Message 3503 - Posted 14 Jul 2006 3:53:09 UTC

                I finally got a WU from this project and it is showing 63+ hours to complete..

                just want to be sure that this is normal as I noticed that we have to have a quorum of 3 for final credit....

                The longest WU I have processed so far for any project has been 37+ hours..

                Is this normal for this project? and if it is , are there any AKOS optimized apps to help the crunching time?


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                Message 3504 - Posted 14 Jul 2006 4:20:35 UTC - in response to Message 3503.

                  Last modified: 14 Jul 2006 4:20:55 UTC

                  I finally got a WU from this project and it is showing 63+ hours to complete..

                  just want to be sure that this is normal as I noticed that we have to have a quorum of 3 for final credit....

                  They appear to be extremely variable in length. Based on the couple dozen I\'ve seen so far, most of them seem quite short--sometimes just a few minutes--but there are some very long ones, too. I just had to cancel one that had already expired (three-day deadline); one of my Macs, a G4/400, had spent the last two days on it in \"panic mode\" and was still estimating 450+ hours to go! OTOH my WinXP/AMD (~2.5 GHz) system has returned four v2.00 WUs: two of them took just under three minutes each, the other two around seven hours each. One of the latter results has already been validated; FWIW it was granted about 60 cobblestones.
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                  Message 3505 - Posted 14 Jul 2006 4:50:59 UTC

                    Appreciate your comments....

                    after 35 minutes the progress is still at 0.00%... I will wait until the morning and see if some progress occurs...

                    had noticed that Rosetta results had a tendancy to not measure consistantly, but I have never see something this slow...Oh well....only time will tell..

                    Odysseus, thanks again...

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                    Message 3510 - Posted 14 Jul 2006 7:29:42 UTC

                      Last modified: 14 Jul 2006 7:32:45 UTC

                      I aborted a WUs that had 0% after more than an hour and tried to delete the rest too. For some reason those WUs have been in a strange state :

                      Aborted but ready to run!

                      I could not report them to the server, they were stuck and I had to reset the project on that box :-/


                      p.s.: I have WUs on other boxes, some will run more than 20 days, I guess a 3 months deadline would be appropriate.

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                      Message 3515 - Posted 14 Jul 2006 11:20:23 UTC - in response to Message 3510.

                        I aborted a WUs that had 0% after more than an hour and tried to delete the rest too. For some reason those WUs have been in a strange state :

                        Aborted but ready to run!

                        That\'s normal behaviour of the BOINC client. It generates the error when it tries to run aborted WUs. And only than they can be reported back to the project. Newer BOINC versions (I don\'t know if 5.4.9 does it, but the betas do) \"start\" an aborted WU at once.

                        Norbert
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                        Message 3517 - Posted 14 Jul 2006 11:45:40 UTC

                          Oh, thanks, that\'s weird but good to know for the future.

                          I don\'t have so much experience as a result killer, with my tiny cache of only a few hours I rarely needed to do such evil things so far.

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                          Message 3518 - Posted 14 Jul 2006 12:45:22 UTC

                            Last modified: 14 Jul 2006 12:52:51 UTC

                            Well, after 8 + hours of crunching, this WU still shows 0.00% progress.

                            Sorry that I have to abort this WU, but even Rosetta, which can be slow in its progress % would catch up to around its original estimate of CPU time in about 2 hours or so.

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                            Message 3519 - Posted 14 Jul 2006 12:52:17 UTC

                              Last modified: 14 Jul 2006 13:22:18 UTC

                              Talk about weird, I just hit the abort and it then showed 100% complete.
                              same WU
                              validate is initial

                              I then hit update and get 117 pts pending. That was a first for me, but I feel better with some results than none.

                              But, still do not understand the estimated CPU time of 63+ hours on this WU...

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                              Message 3521 - Posted 14 Jul 2006 13:39:19 UTC

                                @Stan : did you notice Exit status 0 (0x0) ?

                                The stderr file looks like a \"full run\" too.

                                Maybe the program expects keyboard input or something like that at the end

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                                Message 3522 - Posted 14 Jul 2006 14:27:01 UTC - in response to Message 3521.

                                  Last modified: 14 Jul 2006 14:28:55 UTC

                                  @Stan : did you notice Exit status 0 (0x0) ?

                                  The stderr file looks like a \"full run\" too.

                                  Maybe the program expects keyboard input or something like that at the end



                                  Ananas.. I do not claim to understand why this occurred. But, I thought it best to report it.

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                                  Message 3523 - Posted 14 Jul 2006 14:44:03 UTC

                                    Last modified: 14 Jul 2006 14:45:53 UTC

                                    yep, your report might give Adam a hint where to look for the error.

                                    Maybe some test option for standalone mode or something is enabled so it waits for keyboard input (or a kill signal) instead of reporting \"finish\" status to the BOINC client.

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                                    Message 3525 - Posted 14 Jul 2006 14:49:29 UTC - in response to Message 3523.

                                      yep, your report might give Adam a hint where to look for the error.

                                      Maybe some test option for standalone mode or something is enabled so it waits for keyboard input (or a kill signal) instead of reporting \"finish\" status to the BOINC client.


                                      Ananas...Appreciate your comments...Stan

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                                      Message 3544 - Posted 14 Jul 2006 23:41:10 UTC

                                        After 64 hours of crunching my Celeron/Win98 system is now showing one of the very long WUs as 95% done; it seems likely to finish on time. So it appears that there is hope for at least some of them!

                                        Another one running on a G4/400 Mac (also in panic mode) just finished, at a little over 22 CPU-hours. I just hope the four others that machine has cached, all due on the 17th and showing estimates around 24h each, are actually nice and small: if so, it shouldn\'t have any deadline problems. Of the four it\'s turned in already, one took nearly 25 hours (earning 96 cobblestones); the others took 23 minutes (pending), 3.5 minutes (pending), and 20 seconds (0.03 cobblestone).

                                        Summary: the v2.00 WUs vary in length (i.e. crunching time) by at least three and a half orders of magnitude--possibly four or more.
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                                        Message 3547 - Posted 15 Jul 2006 0:14:26 UTC

                                          On my Athlon64, i\'m running a wu with a completion time + 40h (cpu time done : 34.6 %)
                                          I think (or i hope) that i will be able to finish the wu without problem.
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                                          Message 3615 - Posted 22 Jul 2006 9:30:35 UTC

                                            Last modified: 22 Jul 2006 9:30:58 UTC

                                            this WU runs about 13 hours
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                                            Message 3617 - Posted 22 Jul 2006 13:45:44 UTC

                                              Last modified: 22 Jul 2006 14:13:02 UTC

                                              My last WU crunched for 117.5 hrs. I\'ve been running in overcommitted mode for 4 days and went over the original due date by 18 hrs.
                                              This has caused my Seti WU to also crunch in panic mode overnight (10 hrs), and now, I calculate my QMC project probably wont allow a return to round robin for at another 12 to 18 hrs. It\'s a good thing that the Boinc scheduler is very good at juggling the projects even under a worst case scenario.
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                                              Rakarin
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                                              Message 3628 - Posted 24 Jul 2006 3:23:22 UTC

                                                Last modified: 24 Jul 2006 3:25:03 UTC

                                                Hello,

                                                Well, my computers are back up and running. I had to abort three SZTAKI WU\'s, but I got one done today (a week late).

                                                I have downloaded some new WU\'s... Wow....

                                                I have four on my Mac, which is a G5 PPC 2.3GHz. The estimated time for all is just under 40 hours (about 15 seconds less).

                                                The new WU on my PC has been running for just over an hour. The estimated time is... 153 hours, 42 minutes, 45 seconds! That is over six days running on an AMD Athalon XP 3200+. With the other projects running, it will take about a month to run that one WU.

                                                Since I plan on shutting my Linux PC down tomorrow, I have not re-connected to SZTAKI with that. (It is summer here, and hot, so for I only run it occasionally when downloading updates.)

                                                I see other people are having large WU\'s, but it seems my six-day monster is the largest so far. Will this amount of computation time be standard from now on? Will the client be more optimized in the near future?

                                                Thank you very much.

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                                                Message 3629 - Posted 24 Jul 2006 17:54:21 UTC

                                                  Look at this WU
                                                  It is running for over 25 hours now and still at 0% progress. I shows a to completion time of over 77 hours.
                                                  Should I abort this WU?
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                                                  Message 3630 - Posted 24 Jul 2006 19:43:10 UTC - in response to Message 3629.

                                                    Look at this WU
                                                    It is running for over 25 hours now and still at 0% progress. I shows a to completion time of over 77 hours.
                                                    Should I abort this WU?

                                                    There are some single line WUs that will sit at 0% for a long time. See Adam\'s comment here. So it might well be running ok. Unfortunately that doesn\'t really tell you whether it is worth spending possibly another 75 hours or more on it, without a growing percentage indication to tell you long it will really run for. At least the other two machines running it at present are also Windows machines, so if it does finish without exceeding any time limits they should all validate for a good credit. Sorry, best advice I can offer really is to toss a coin.

                                                    Mike

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                                                    Message 3631 - Posted 24 Jul 2006 20:43:57 UTC

                                                      OK, I will keep this WU running until it finishes.
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                                                      Message 3632 - Posted 24 Jul 2006 23:34:05 UTC

                                                        Last modified: 24 Jul 2006 23:39:39 UTC

                                                        Ehm, a record ?
                                                        wuid=37390
                                                        completion time : + 320 days
                                                        completion at : 14 june 2007
                                                        more the wu is crunched, more the completion time is increasing
                                                        and % done : 0.1 %

                                                        This wu seems to be a pain for my Barton or for my OS (Win98SE) or for my CC (4.32).

                                                        Project suspended on this machine.

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                                                        Message 3635 - Posted 25 Jul 2006 8:13:56 UTC

                                                          I also got a long WU. To Completion: 176 hours. 0.2% after 8 hours ......
                                                          Strange.

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                                                          Message 3643 - Posted 25 Jul 2006 22:17:58 UTC

                                                            I still have one at 9days 19hours, 0.00%

                                                            It is past it\'s deadline, but I think the deadline has been extended as per the Front Page news
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                                                            Message 3644 - Posted 25 Jul 2006 22:21:49 UTC

                                                              is this project still alpha?
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                                                              Message 3756 - Posted 8 Aug 2006 16:50:17 UTC

                                                                This WU, No.37991, has had one of my G4/400s in panic mode for almost two weeks now; it\'s showing 5.7% done after 307 hours of crunching, implying a total time well over 5000 h--but BOINC Manager estimates the time remaining at around 900 h. Since the deadline is now less than two weeks away, I\'m becoming quite pessimistic about its prospects of success, but I\'ll let it run for a few more days to see if it shows signs of \'getting over the hump\' and making more progress.
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                                                                Message 3757 - Posted 8 Aug 2006 18:09:19 UTC - in response to Message 3756.

                                                                  This WU, No.37991, has had one of my G4/400s in panic mode for almost two weeks now; it\'s showing 5.7% done after 307 hours of crunching, implying a total time well over 5000 h--but BOINC Manager estimates the time remaining at around 900 h. Since the deadline is now less than two weeks away, I\'m becoming quite pessimistic about its prospects of success, but I\'ll let it run for a few more days to see if it shows signs of \'getting over the hump\' and making more progress.


                                                                  The BOINC estimations are always wrong with BOINC 5.* releases. Your own calculation is correct. Usually programs should be better and better with every new release, but BOINC 4.* estimated these remaining processing times correctly. I don\'t understand this error, as it is just a simple division. Good luck and a lot of patience!
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                                                                  Message 3759 - Posted 8 Aug 2006 18:50:18 UTC - in response to Message 3757.

                                                                    Last modified: 8 Aug 2006 18:50:35 UTC

                                                                    The BOINC estimations are always wrong with BOINC 5.* releases. Your own calculation is correct. Usually programs should be better and better with every new release, but BOINC 4.* estimated these remaining processing times correctly. I don\'t understand this error, as it is just a simple division.

                                                                    The 5.* versions compute the remaining time with the information the project gives for a WU. They only slowly adjust with what the reality tells. If the projects info about the WU is nonsense (like here), then the estimations are nonsense too.

                                                                    Norbert

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                                                                    Message 3760 - Posted 8 Aug 2006 19:00:44 UTC - in response to Message 3757.

                                                                      The BOINC estimations are always wrong with BOINC 5.* releases. Your own calculation is correct. Usually programs should be better and better with every new release, but BOINC 4.* estimated these remaining processing times correctly. I don\'t understand this error, as it is just a simple division. Good luck and a lot of patience!

                                                                      Thanks ... I\'m not so sure BOINC\'s estimates are flat-out erroneous; I suspect they\'re trying to weigh in such factors as short-term progress, past performance with a given project\'s WUs, the host\'s DCF, &c. With the enormous variability in WU length here, I\'m not surprised the poor thing\'s getting confused ...
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                                                                      Message 3761 - Posted 8 Aug 2006 19:04:10 UTC - in response to Message 3759.

                                                                        The 5.* versions compute the remaining time with the information the project gives for a WU. They only slowly adjust with what the reality tells. If the projects info about the WU is nonsense (like here), then the estimations are nonsense too.

                                                                        That would explain a lot! I didn\'t realize that projects include forecast running times with WUs, beyond what one might deduce from the deadline (from projects that vary them according to length, that is, as SETI@home does).
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                                                                        Message 3762 - Posted 8 Aug 2006 23:54:52 UTC

                                                                          Last modified: 9 Aug 2006 0:04:30 UTC

                                                                          Here\'s a doozy: WU No.36282. My other G4/400 has also been bogged down for a while with it; as I\'m still running the old BOINC Menubar (v5.2.13) on that one--for unobtrusiveness, as it\'s someone else\'s workstation--I hadn\'t noticed quite how poorly it was doing until today. I just had a look with BOINC Stat Viewer, and it\'s taken 118 hours to crunch 1.2%, with an estimated completion date in September, 2010! The two other hosts working on it were a 3-GHz Pentium and a 2.8-GHz Xeon with quite respectable stats; it appears that both owners aborted their instances manually (over a week ago), after investing 164 h and 216 h respectively.

                                                                          I expect to be forgiven for killing this one; it\'s already consumed two and a half weeks of this system\'s CPU time in EDF mode, putting its overall RAC in the toilet, and no replacement results have been issued for the errors, so it\'s not as if anyone else is waiting for mine ...
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                                                                          Message 3766 - Posted 9 Aug 2006 5:26:10 UTC - in response to Message 3760.

                                                                            The BOINC estimations are always wrong with BOINC 5.* releases. Your own calculation is correct. Usually programs should be better and better with every new release, but BOINC 4.* estimated these remaining processing times correctly. I don\'t understand this error, as it is just a simple division. Good luck and a lot of patience!

                                                                            Thanks ... I\'m not so sure BOINC\'s estimates are flat-out erroneous; I suspect they\'re trying to weigh in such factors as short-term progress, past performance with a given project\'s WUs, the host\'s DCF, &c. With the enormous variability in WU length here, I\'m not surprised the poor thing\'s getting confused ...


                                                                            Now I see. So the algorithm is correct in itself, but cannot fit to Sztaki. Nevertheless I prefer the previous one. It produced much more reliable results (also in CPDN and LHC), except of course in situations where predictions are impossible, such as WUs with only 1 matrice.
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                                                                            Message 3767 - Posted 9 Aug 2006 7:48:08 UTC

                                                                              Last modified: 9 Aug 2006 7:48:30 UTC

                                                                              I had crunched a little SZTAKI when I first found the project, but stopped because I needed the quota elsewhere. With the end of CASP, I was shuffling quotas and found I had 2-3% spare, so connected that to SZTAKI as I remembered the wu\'s were short with a sensible deadline, and with such a small quota, would finish withouf EDF issues.

                                                                              Alas, the wu that came had 47 hours estimated. Even with the September deadline, I don\'t think my machine can run that so sadly I\'ve aborted it, and will stay idle here again.

                                                                              Sorry folks.
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                                                                              Message 3781 - Posted 10 Aug 2006 2:24:28 UTC - in response to Message 3766.

                                                                                The BOINC estimations are always wrong with BOINC 5.* releases. Your own calculation is correct. Usually programs should be better and better with every new release, but BOINC 4.* estimated these remaining processing times correctly. I don\'t understand this error, as it is just a simple division. Good luck and a lot of patience!

                                                                                Thanks ... I\'m not so sure BOINC\'s estimates are flat-out erroneous; I suspect they\'re trying to weigh in such factors as short-term progress, past performance with a given project\'s WUs, the host\'s DCF, &c. With the enormous variability in WU length here, I\'m not surprised the poor thing\'s getting confused ...


                                                                                Now I see. So the algorithm is correct in itself, but cannot fit to Sztaki. Nevertheless I prefer the previous one. It produced much more reliable results (also in CPDN and LHC), except of course in situations where predictions are impossible, such as WUs with only 1 matrice.

                                                                                The problem with the 4.x version was that it failed very badly if the progress was not linear, and there are several projects that are distinctly non linear. The 4.x version would also not deal well with projects that gave bad estimates (the 4.x version would fail just as badly here - on every result, not just the first one). The 5.x version does very badly if the initial estimate is very badly wrong. However, the DCF will (slowly if it is an over estimate, and very quickly if it is an underestimate) move toward a better answer after each work unit is completed. If a project has stable runtimes / estimates the DCF will converge to a reasonable (not perfect, I can\'t claim that) estimate, and then the progress estimate will be quite good. Note that a project can have wildly varying normal run times, but if the project can reasonably accurately estimate the run time then the DCF will converge nicely anyway.

                                                                                Inputs into the run time estimate fpops_est from the project (estimate of the floating point operations), the current CPU time used, the current fraction done, and the current Duration Correction Factor (a number that is some history about results for the project). The worse the initial estimate and the fewer times the the DCF has been updated (results completed without error), the worse the estimate.
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                                                                                Odysseus
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                                                                                Message 3878 - Posted 26 Aug 2006 0:11:56 UTC

                                                                                  Another one down: after two weeks, 190 hours CPU time, 1.6% done (having moved only 0.5% since Monday, and showing an estimate of 12000 h to completion), this time I didn\'t wait until the last few days before the deadline, but instead detached the Mac G4/400 --\"Third strike: you\'re out!\" I still intend on contributing as much as I can to the project, but it seems clear this machine is unable to do so, in any worthwhile way at least; in the last two months it\'s only managed to submit four hours\' worth of valid work. Obviously it\'s not a crunching powerhouse, but it was doing just fine with SETI@home & Einstein@home until SDG began monopolizing its time ...
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                                                                                  Message 4015 - Posted 16 Sep 2006 14:21:13 UTC

                                                                                    FACT: I\'m 13hrs.(+) into a \"50 minute\" WU and still only 20% done.

                                                                                    CONJECTURE: At 20% completed, the time estimate has had a chance to settle out and get reasonably close to accurate. If it takes over 13 hours to crunch 20% of a project, then it is reasonable to conclude that it will take 65(+) hours to complete it. However, 20% (and 13hrs) into a 50 minute WU, I show 11hrs remaining.

                                                                                    FACT: I currently have 13 such \"50 minute\" projects lined up.

                                                                                    CONJECTURE: At the current rate, this represents, potentially, at least 845 hours of computing time.

                                                                                    FACT: Today is 09-16-06. All of these are due 10-12-06.

                                                                                    CONJECTURE: Perhaps someone else would arrive at a different conclusion when doing the math, but my calculations show only about 552 hours between now and the deadline.

                                                                                    I don\'t care to accept work knowing that it is doomed to failure. That doesn\'t give me much to look forward to.

                                                                                    I will complete the current WU\'s up until 10-12-06 but am not accepting additional work units. At that point, I will reconsider my involvement in this project. If, by some fluke, I should happen to finish up ALL the assigned WU\'s on time, I will accept additional WU\'s. If not, then I will detach from SZTAKI.



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                                                                                    Profile Stan Pleban
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                                                                                    Message 4017 - Posted 16 Sep 2006 14:53:32 UTC

                                                                                      Bill... I had a similiar problem that you did, but I posted my findings here

                                                                                      stan\'s msg..

                                                                                      please note that I was as confused as you were but I did get a good result..

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                                                                                      Message boards : Észrevételek, tapasztalatok : Does SZTAKI have some very, very, very large WU\'s?


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