Ad@m\'s POD (page 9)


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Message 5415 - Posted 8 Jan 2007 9:33:06 UTC

    Happy New 11111010111!

    To answer a few question...

    1. We are working on upgrading the server\'s code. This is being delayed, because first we have to create a Debian package from the source.

    2. Longer term aims: it seems that the application is not doing well with WUs containing only 1 matrix, which is more likely to be the case with higher dimensions. This generates all the problem, rendering the application not to be user friendly. However, the research is very promising as our mathematician colleagues say, so we are thinking about continuing this application in a private manner, with less computers and longer run times...
    Meanwhile, we are seeking new applications in Hungary - that would be more user friendly - to be run on SZTAKI Desktop Grid. So, if you stay with us and continue work, the reward will be a new user-friendlier application run on SZDG.


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    Message 5420 - Posted 8 Jan 2007 13:34:10 UTC - in response to Message 5415.

      Last modified: 8 Jan 2007 13:37:09 UTC

      we are thinking about continuing this application in a private manner, with less computers and longer run times

      Happy New D7D to the community!

      Does this mean that the project will be closed to the public at the end of dimension 12? Or that participation will be limited to people promising that they are able and willing to crunch long WUs without a checkpoint system and that the project will probably not run under the Boinc platform?

      I would also like to know how far we have come with this dimension. We crunch and crunch and don\'t know where we are...

      Robert
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      Message 5421 - Posted 8 Jan 2007 22:03:38 UTC - in response to Message 5415.

        Happy New 11111010111!

        To answer a few question...

        1. We are working on upgrading the server\'s code. This is being delayed, because first we have to create a Debian package from the source.

        2. Longer term aims: it seems that the application is not doing well with WUs containing only 1 matrix, which is more likely to be the case with higher dimensions. This generates all the problem, rendering the application not to be user friendly. However, the research is very promising as our mathematician colleagues say, so we are thinking about continuing this application in a private manner, with less computers and longer run times...
        Meanwhile, we are seeking new applications in Hungary - that would be more user friendly - to be run on SZTAKI Desktop Grid. So, if you stay with us and continue work, the reward will be a new user-friendlier application run on SZDG.



        thanks Adam -
        It would be nice if the trickle mechansim used by the climate predictor were available in all the projects...

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        Message 5451 - Posted 12 Jan 2007 16:15:09 UTC - in response to Message 5420.

          Does this mean that the project will be closed to the public at the end of dimension 12?


          The project will not be closed, I mean SZTAKI Desktop Grid will always do good for science research. But it is possible that the BinSYS application won\'t be hosted here forever...


          Or that participation will be limited to people promising that they are able and willing to crunch long WUs without a checkpoint system and that the project will probably not run under the Boinc platform?

          NO! There will be no limitations, and as I\'ve said before SZTAKI Desktop Grid will always be open to anyone.


          I would also like to know how far we have come with this dimension. We crunch and crunch and don\'t know where we are...

          After I pass a few more exams I\'ll calculate it for you...stay tuned!



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          Message 5452 - Posted 12 Jan 2007 16:16:10 UTC - in response to Message 5421.


            It would be nice if the trickle mechansim used by the climate predictor were available in all the projects...


            I think for this to work here, we first have to update the server\'s daemons...

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            Message 5463 - Posted 13 Jan 2007 12:25:46 UTC - in response to Message 5421.

              It would be nice if the trickle mechansim used by the climate predictor were available in all the projects...

              But please correct the restarting-bug first.

              Norbert
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              Message 5467 - Posted 14 Jan 2007 18:14:16 UTC - in response to Message 5415.

                Happy New 11111010111!

                To answer a few question...

                1. We are working on upgrading the server\'s code. This is being delayed, because first we have to create a Debian package from the source.

                2. Longer term aims: it seems that the application is not doing well with WUs containing only 1 matrix, which is more likely to be the case with higher dimensions. This generates all the problem, rendering the application not to be user friendly. However, the research is very promising as our mathematician colleagues say, so we are thinking about continuing this application in a private manner, with less computers and longer run times...
                Meanwhile, we are seeking new applications in Hungary - that would be more user friendly - to be run on SZTAKI Desktop Grid. So, if you stay with us and continue work, the reward will be a new user-friendlier application run on SZDG.


                1. What\'s the time line now ?

                2. This problem is not new now and very well described by some users.
                How is working a checkpoint here (or why it doesn\'t work) ?

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                Message 5490 - Posted 18 Jan 2007 0:18:18 UTC

                  Last modified: 18 Jan 2007 0:43:07 UTC

                  Problem with the one line wus :
                  Since many wus have in their stderr out \"APP: Output is empty, placing msg in out.txt\", the server increases the replication to get a quorum with valid wus (and to avoid \"Workunit error - check skipped\").
                  But finally people get 0 credit granted.
                  Why ?
                  - their wus are invalid
                  - \"the best of\" : even if they succeed with their wu, because of the max # of error/total/success results = 5, 8, 5 reached quickly, credits granted = 0

                  Note that if the max # of error/total/success results was higher, the problem would be perhaps worse : more time wasted on the one line wus.

                  So what\'s the best solution if you catch a one line wu ?
                  don\'t stop Boinc
                  don\'t stop or reboot your machine
                  abort the wu ?
                  hope a better application ?

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                  Message 5499 - Posted 20 Jan 2007 9:35:14 UTC

                    I stopped this project again, because I have not got any credits for the work. There are some examples:
                    http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/workunit.php?wuid=9109
                    http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/workunit.php?wuid=11351
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                    Message 5500 - Posted 20 Jan 2007 10:00:02 UTC - in response to Message 5499.

                      I stopped this project again, because I have not got any credits for the work. There are some examples:
                      http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/workunit.php?wuid=9109
                      http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/workunit.php?wuid=11351

                      The credits are still pending for these WUs. But even when the canonical result is determined, you won\'t get credits. Your WUs have the famous \"empty\" result, because you restarted Boinc or your system. I browsed quickly through your results and saw that you restarted all your WUs. Even those with many lines are restarted after the first lines. I have the feeling that you deliberately restart Boinc to make your WUs go faster. This looks fine in the beginning because you can process many WUs, but they will all be rejected during validation.

                      It is annoying, but this project seems to work only when you leave the processing go on undisturbed. We know for sure that 1-liners must not be restarted, but I get more and more the feeling that this is also true for many-liners. I think that if we interrupt a 50-liner, the result will be 49 lines, which is not \"empty\" but will nevertheless be useless during validation. I have decided not to stop Boinc inside a WU. If I have a few long ones, I suspend them all but 1, let it finish and then shut down my system. However, sometimes the system crashes on its own :-(

                      Do other people have a similar feeling about many-liners?
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                      Message 5507 - Posted 20 Jan 2007 18:20:32 UTC - in response to Message 5500.

                        Last modified: 20 Jan 2007 18:35:20 UTC

                        I stopped this project again, because I have not got any credits for the work. There are some examples:
                        http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/workunit.php?wuid=9109
                        http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/workunit.php?wuid=11351

                        The credits are still pending for these WUs. But even when the canonical result is determined, you won\'t get credits. Your WUs have the famous \"empty\" result, because you restarted Boinc or your system. I browsed quickly through your results and saw that you restarted all your WUs. Even those with many lines are restarted after the first lines. I have the feeling that you deliberately restart Boinc to make your WUs go faster. This looks fine in the beginning because you can process many WUs, but they will all be rejected during validation.

                        It is annoying, but this project seems to work only when you leave the processing go on undisturbed. We know for sure that 1-liners must not be restarted, but I get more and more the feeling that this is also true for many-liners. I think that if we interrupt a 50-liner, the result will be 49 lines, which is not \"empty\" but will nevertheless be useless during validation. I have decided not to stop Boinc inside a WU. If I have a few long ones, I suspend them all but 1, let it finish and then shut down my system. However, sometimes the system crashes on its own :-(

                        Do other people have a similar feeling about many-liners?


                        Interesting.

                        Robert, I\'m sure that you remember that for a time there was advice floating around on this board to PURPOSELY stop and restart to \"help things finish.\"

                        As you note, \"SUCCESS\" (successfully finished) does not equate to valid.

                        I have a few WUs still pending validation such as the 5 line a WU processed with V201,:
                        http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/result.php?resultid=91508
                        Note that the above seems to restart and REDO the most recently completed line.

                        Whereas, a WU also processed with V201,
                        http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/result.php?resultid=81843
                        Restarts with the line FOLLOWING the most recently completed LINE.

                        I was hoping that this was due to a version change...
                        But, both were v201



















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                        Message 5508 - Posted 20 Jan 2007 18:31:10 UTC - in response to Message 5500.

                          Last modified: 20 Jan 2007 18:53:31 UTC

                          Do other people have a similar feeling about many-liners?


                          Robert,

                          I agree totally. Multi-liners are likely to fall victim to the problem of faulty checkpointing as well. It is just not as obvious as it is with one-liners because the \"Output is empty\" message may not be there. But when you read the entire \"stderr_txt\" of \"successful\" (but invalid) results, you inevitably see at least one \"Restarting from checkpoint: Lines processed so far _\" message. As you said:

                          I think that if we interrupt a 50-liner, the result will be 49 lines, which is not \"empty\" but will nevertheless be useless during validation.


                          Furthermore, I believe this means the validation process is also flawed (because it only seems to require 2 matching results). That is, if the validator matches 2 results that encountered the checkpointing problem on the same line, it might validate an invalid result. That may not be very likely on a 50-liner, but what about on a 2-liner? Say, for example, that 3 hosts are given a 2-liner to process. One of the hosts finishes both lines but the other two hosts only finish Line 1 OK (and encounter the checkpointing problem on Line 2). When the quorum is formed, will the 2 (faulty) results be matched and validated? And, will the other (and truly valid) result will be deemed invalid?

                          I may have been the victim of such a mismatch (reported in this message). (Note that, at the time, I was thinking it may have been due to differences in the versions of the application.) However, the WU I cited is no longer available for viewing.

                          Of course, all of the above is just speculation (though it\'s based on some empirical evidence). Unfortunately, since we rarely get any feedback from Adam on the issue, that\'s pretty much all we have to go on.

                          Hopefully, our exchange will prompt a few more people to add to the discussion.

                          Stick

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                          Message 5514 - Posted 21 Jan 2007 14:26:52 UTC

                            AkosF said here that the 2.04 has a checkpoint problem.
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                            Message 5766 - Posted 28 Feb 2007 14:09:56 UTC - in response to Message 5415.

                              So, server upgarde is ready, once again sorry for the inconvenience. Also the new software made it available to grant most of the long pending credits. If you still find some waiting for granting, please notify me. Thanks....and keep crunching...

                              oh, naturally we are working on the bug of search...so stay tuned!

                              A szerver frissítése befejeződött sikeresen, mégegyszer elnézést mindenkitől az okozott kellemetlenségekért. Az új szoftver lehetővé tette, hogy a régóta jóváírásra váró kreditek javát jóváírjuk. Ha valaki mégis talál olyan resultot, mely jóváírásra vár, kérem szóljon. Köszi...

                              Természetesen a search algoritmus bugján dolgozunk, amint megvan jön a frissítés...
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                              Message 5771 - Posted 28 Feb 2007 15:54:25 UTC

                                Regarding the new server software, I noticed that there are no longer any links at the top of the forum pages (for example, to \"Your Account\"). I had found those links a very convenient way to navigate around the site. Hopefully, you can find a way to restore them.
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                                Message 5777 - Posted 28 Feb 2007 21:45:40 UTC - in response to Message 5771.

                                  Regarding the new server software, I noticed that there are no longer any links at the top of the forum pages (for example, to \"Your Account\"). I had found those links a very convenient way to navigate around the site. Hopefully, you can find a way to restore them.


                                  Sure thing...!
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                                  Message 5856 - Posted 7 Mar 2007 1:40:31 UTC

                                    Last modified: 7 Mar 2007 1:44:01 UTC

                                    I have been granted credit for the following wus recently but my recent average credit has not increased and also in my account at boincstats my best 5 day\'s top granted credit as 690. check here

                                    12460
                                    58293
                                    16122
                                    12711
                                    13211
                                    13996
                                    57492
                                    57447
                                    57347
                                    20194

                                    note: my host no. is 170558
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                                    Message 5858 - Posted 7 Mar 2007 12:59:36 UTC

                                      Our team offen gets less credit than sum of members\' credit. Just see granted credits of some previous days of Merkantil team and its members\' credit (1153 <-> 1948, 885 <-> 1153). Difference is now more than 6,000 credits.
                                      Is it possible to grant credits to our Merkantil team?
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                                      Message 5859 - Posted 7 Mar 2007 15:51:40 UTC - in response to Message 5858.

                                        Is it possible to grant credits to our Merkantil team?


                                        Sure, just give me some time...

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                                        Message 5866 - Posted 9 Mar 2007 9:58:31 UTC

                                          Last modified: 9 Mar 2007 10:15:43 UTC

                                          Wondering if you might merge my old host name into my new host name
                                          254849 -----> 267105

                                          Might also apply to host CPID ...
                                          only one machine in use the whole time for
                                          user CPID 231fc2dec94497f376810c05fe33c352

                                          Also, is it correct that if my computer restarts during a WU
                                          that the WU will fail in some way?
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                                          Message 5867 - Posted 9 Mar 2007 11:24:38 UTC

                                            Last modified: 9 Mar 2007 11:26:13 UTC

                                            Also .. if a task has been running for 1:23:40 CPU time and shows O.OOO% progress, is this of concern?
                                            Perhaps I should detach for the good of the project?
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                                            Message 5869 - Posted 9 Mar 2007 12:44:54 UTC - in response to Message 5866.

                                              Last modified: 9 Mar 2007 12:50:41 UTC

                                              Also, is it correct that if my computer restarts during a WU
                                              that the WU will fail in some way?

                                              There is a problem with the checkpointing system. If there were no checkpoints, a WU would restart from scratch, which is annoying but acceptable if you know about it.

                                              Here there are checkpoints, but they don\'t work properly. They make you believe that everything is OK, but it isn\'t. The program jumps some processing and delivers a result that is considered by Boinc as being successful. But when 3 \"successful\" results have been sent in, the validator notices that the interrupted WUs are often incomplete or wrong and they fail.

                                              If something is missing, the system will qualify a 1-liner WU as being empty, the many-liners are not empty but nevertheless not correct.

                                              Sometimes, restarting a WU doesn\'t cause any trouble, it depends on where in the program it just was. As far as I know, the programmers don\'t know themselves where the problem exactly occurs. So you are strongly advised not to interrupt a WU. You can switch between different projects if you leave Sztaki in memory. My fuse, my Windows and my travel requirements don\'t allow me always to crunch 24/7, so I had to suspend downloading new WUs :-((


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                                              Message 5870 - Posted 9 Mar 2007 12:55:40 UTC - in response to Message 5867.

                                                Also .. if a task has been running for 1:23:40 CPU time and shows O.OOO% progress, is this of concern?

                                                Certainly not. The percentage increases (jumps) only when a new line starts. For a 1-liner it will stay at 0% until the very last second when it goes to 100%. If you have one of the famous \"1a96...\" WUs that are still lingering around, you must wait for at least 100 hours before getting nervous.

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                                                Message 5871 - Posted 9 Mar 2007 21:56:38 UTC - in response to Message 5869.

                                                  Also, is it correct that if my computer restarts during a WU
                                                  that the WU will fail in some way?

                                                  There is a problem with the checkpointing system. If there were no checkpoints, a WU would restart from scratch, which is annoying but acceptable if you know about it.

                                                  Here there are checkpoints, but they don\'t work properly. They make you believe that everything is OK, but it isn\'t. The program jumps some processing and delivers a result that is considered by Boinc as being successful. But when 3 \"successful\" results have been sent in, the validator notices that the interrupted WUs are often incomplete or wrong and they fail.

                                                  If something is missing, the system will qualify a 1-liner WU as being empty, the many-liners are not empty but nevertheless not correct.

                                                  Sometimes, restarting a WU doesn\'t cause any trouble, it depends on where in the program it just was. As far as I know, the programmers don\'t know themselves where the problem exactly occurs. So you are strongly advised not to interrupt a WU. You can switch between different projects if you leave Sztaki in memory. My fuse, my Windows and my travel requirements don\'t allow me always to crunch 24/7, so I had to suspend downloading new WUs :-((


                                                  Thank you robert ... Power interruptions are what suggest to me that I should also stop d/l\'ing new WU\'s for a bit until the matter is sorted out for the good of the project. My time wasted isn\'t an issue for me, but if I\'m not actually crunching valid results for SZTAKI then I suspect I may be delaying the project progress more than contributing.

                                                  I look forward to accepting new when either the bug is fixed or I have a more dedicated platform.

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                                                  Message 5934 - Posted 18 Mar 2007 5:12:50 UTC

                                                    Last modified: 18 Mar 2007 5:15:13 UTC

                                                    Hi, Ádám!

                                                    My guess is that you are up to your neck in alligators (ie, very busy: part of a card cartoon with the question ‘How can I drain the swamp when I\'m up to my neck in alligators?’), but some feedback on the validator question would be helpful.

                                                    My pending queue on Computer 210840 is now 58 and rising. On computer 147117, WU 1505 has been finished and credit granted since 6 March 2007, but it is still hanging around on my WU list.

                                                    Others are also grumbling (see thread Any update on the Validator server?.

                                                    How about a one- or two-line summary?

                                                    Thanks,

                                                    George
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                                                    Message 5939 - Posted 18 Mar 2007 15:17:04 UTC

                                                      why 69 granted in this wu - http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/workunit.php?wuid=116127 when all computers that crunched the wu sucessfully claimed 200+ ?


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                                                      Message 5940 - Posted 18 Mar 2007 20:59:33 UTC - in response to Message 5859.

                                                        Thanx a lot.
                                                        I see again a strange thing: sum of granted credits of my (and the others) computers are less than my / others credits.
                                                        How can it be possible? I\'ve wiped my eyes but I still see this.

                                                        Is it possible to grant credits to our Merkantil team?


                                                        Sure, just give me some time...


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                                                        Message 5946 - Posted 19 Mar 2007 20:25:13 UTC

                                                          Adam! Please check this WU, and the credits...
                                                          http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/workunit.php?wuid=115862

                                                          thx
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                                                          Message 5984 - Posted 26 Mar 2007 10:32:30 UTC

                                                            Once more .... very confused ... the task suggests a \"to completion\" time of \"01:15:00\" yet I see another completion of the task listed at 128,000 + seconds ... which would yield something of a \"to completion\" time of 35:55:55 +

                                                            Why does the task suggest an amount of time \"to completion\" that is completely unrealistic even if I leave it running uninterupted?


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                                                            Message 5992 - Posted 27 Mar 2007 14:37:40 UTC

                                                              Last modified: 27 Mar 2007 14:38:50 UTC


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                                                              Message 5993 - Posted 27 Mar 2007 14:37:55 UTC

                                                                since I started Sztaki my cpu benchmarks were about 1400(floating point) & 2300(integer)per cpu. About 2 days ago I ran the cpu benchmarks in boinc, it showed 5345 (floating point) & 9320(integer). Why did it change by so much?
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                                                                Message 5998 - Posted 28 Mar 2007 20:31:08 UTC

                                                                  New version is coming shortly for all platforms, which will boost processing times a bit. During debugging, Attila has discovered that the too frequent checks for checkpoint slows down processing. Stay tuned...
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                                                                  Message 6056 - Posted 10 Apr 2007 3:23:17 UTC

                                                                    Please see
                                                                    http://szdg.lpds.sztaki.hu/szdg/forum_thread.php?id=274
                                                                    Message 6055
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                                                                    Message 6146 - Posted 28 Apr 2007 12:52:31 UTC

                                                                      Differences in team vs. sum(user_credits) credits and differences in user vs. sum(host_credits) have been equalized. I hope it won\'t happen again and thanks for the patience...
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                                                                      Message 6172 - Posted 3 May 2007 8:06:32 UTC

                                                                        Halihó!
                                                                        Tegnap csatlakoztam és 24 óra alatt nem kaptam egz WUt se, pedig csak ennek a projectnek szabadna WUt letöltenie. A szerver mindig visszadob vmiért.

                                                                        Adtok ki WUt manapság???

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                                                                        Message 6194 - Posted 6 May 2007 11:39:58 UTC - in response to Message 6172.

                                                                          Adtok ki WUt manapság???


                                                                          Persze, most probald meg...

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                                                                          Message 6212 - Posted 7 May 2007 9:50:34 UTC - in response to Message 6194.

                                                                            Adtok ki WUt manapság???


                                                                            Persze, most probald meg...


                                                                            Köszi, már megy!

                                                                            Nos a WUk kiértékelése még mindig lassúcska. Mire lehet számitani, mennyi idő alatt derül ki, hogy értékelhetőek-e???
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                                                                            Message 6350 - Posted 18 Jun 2007 9:47:38 UTC

                                                                              Hi,

                                                                              as most of you have already noticed the server is a bit overwhelmed lately. This is due to the ever growing number of workunits needed to keep the chrunching. A new database server has already arrived at the lab and it is currently beeing tested and if everything goes well we will be able to migrate the database of the project to the new server. Stay tuned...
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                                                                              Message 6353 - Posted 20 Jun 2007 6:47:49 UTC - in response to Message 6350.

                                                                                Hi,

                                                                                as most of you have already noticed the server is a bit overwhelmed lately. This is due to the ever growing number of workunits needed to keep the chrunching. A new database server has already arrived at the lab and it is currently beeing tested and if everything goes well we will be able to migrate the database of the project to the new server. Stay tuned...


                                                                                Szia Ádám!
                                                                                A gépek már nagyon várják a munkacsomagokat...
                                                                                Várhatóan mikorra lesz meg az új szerver? Mert szerintem addig álljon le a projekt. A munkacsomagok meg csak gyűlnek. Június 18-n jött az utolsó csomag az egyik gépemre.
                                                                                További légkondis nyarat!
                                                                                Attis
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                                                                                Message 6373 - Posted 2 Jul 2007 7:53:45 UTC - in response to Message 6353.

                                                                                  I\'m deleting old workunits now to try to help the database a bit to catch up, until the new database server is ariving...

                                                                                  Az új adatbázis szerver érkezéséig megpróbálom régi munkacsomagok kitörlésével felszabadítani egy kicsit az adatbázist.
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